aa5874

Your statement is quite remarkable. Please explain why you claim or accuse Eusebius of forgery when you neither have any actual recoverd dated source by C 14 or Paleography??

Please, how do know that Eusebius actually wrote anything in the 4th century???

Do you have any C 14 DATING for "Church History"??

As I pointed out ALREADY the earliest actual recovered copy of "Church History" is dated some time in the 5th century.

And further, in "Against the Galileans", Julian the Emperor seemed UNAWARE that Josephus mentioned Jesus.

Eusebius may have been dead BEFORE "Church History" was composed or it may have been manipulated.

Please, Paleography is an ACCEPTABLE method of dating Ancient manuscripts and it ALLOWS me to argue that the Jesus story was known in the 2nd century.

I surely cannot use what you imagine as evidence in an argument.

mountainman

While palaeography is an ACCEPTABLE method of dating it does not generate HARD EVIDENCE like C14. Rather palaeography, in comparison to C14, generates VERY SOFT EVIDENCE, a little like plasticine. It can be rhetorically stretched by various AGENDAS over centuries with very little comparanda, not restricted to plus or minus 60 years like C14.

C14 is a product of technological physical science and yields scientific results. Palaeography is a product of handwriting analysis and scriptoral forms that was harnessed by the early 20th century Divinity Colleges to support the agenda of trying to find some physical evidence for "Early Christian Manuscripts". Palaeography is more of an art form, and yields corresponding results.


You may certainly argue with the apologists that we are in possession of evidence that indicates there was a Jesus story in the 2nd century, but there is no HARD EVIDENCE for the claim. You have what is known as VERY SOFT EVIDENCE.

aa5874

Please, you are illogical. Identifiable dated 2nd century evidence allows me to argue that the Jesus story was initiated in the 2nd century.

Where are your dated sources, Sheshbazzar??


Again, you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I showed you the recovered DATED NT manuscripts from the 2nd century and later.

You are arguing from IGNORANCE and IMAGINE there were obscure messianic cults but do NOT present any actual recovered dated source.

Where are your dated sources, Sheshbazzar??

Tell me which reputable scholar accepts your STORY?? It is actual evidence that matters not appeal to authority.

Where are your dated sources, Sheshbazzar??


Please, I did NOT make such an argument. You are presenting MIS-LEADING and erroneous statement. I am having difficulty with your disturbing blatant errors.
Again, you have NOTHING dated for any Jesus story in the 1st century.

Where are your dated sources, Sheshbazzar??


Again, you present blatant erroneous claims. Please, why are you doing this?? Don't you realise other people can see your blatant erroneous statements about me??

This is a public forum. People all over the world can see that you have mis-represented my argument.

I am extremely at a loss why you have decided to completely mis-represent my argument.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stament_papyri

Again, I no longer accept presumptions about the 1st century with Jesus. The dated evidence is EXACTLY and PRECISELY what I expected when Jesus, the disciples and Paul had NO real existence.

I will REVIEW my argument when NEW DATED evidence is recovered.

Sheshbazzar

My view is that there were a lot of wandering preachers during the troubles of the late first early second century CE.
Some of them may have been named 'Jesus', or perhaps being the name of Moses' infamous successor, the significant name 'Jesus' (Joshua ='YAH's Deliverer') was attached to one or another who were believed to be the one that would bring 'te'shua ('deliverance', 'salvation', 'victory') to Israel in its time of trouble.
No such actual individual would have even needed exist, only a belief or perception that such would, did, or had arisen in response to their hopes and prayers.
They wanted a te'shua whom would naturally be a y'shua, so it is not the least strange they would 'through the grapevine' come to hear of and believe that a Y'shua (Jesus)
had indeed arose among them.... then followed the invented stories to explain why he was NLA and 'missing in action'.

Sheshbazzar

I do not believe I have misrepresented your argument. You have stated on numerous occasions that there was no Jesus in the 1st century.

Others will also see that your assertions are not providing much in the way of any rebutal of the actual points that I raised aa.

.

Sheshbazzar

The name Y'shua (sic 'Jesus') has been found on more than 70 tombs from the early 1st century.
Evidently there was a 'Jesus' in the 1st century.

Whether any had ever been 'oiled' before they died is difficult for Archaeologists to determine at this late date.

aa5874

You have ZERO actual RECOVERED evidence for your Jesus story. You attempt to ridicule others when you blatantly make claims that have NO actual support.

Please, you don't make much sense.

It is most remarkable that you post what you IMAGINE happened in the 1st century while admitting that there is no known evidence.

Please, read the Gospels. Jesus was a WATER-Walker, the Son of a Ghost and God the Creator.

You JUST invented a Jesus story from Myth Fables. You are an INVENTOR.

Sheshbazzar

I do not have any Jesus story. Nowhere here have I presented any Jesus story.
I have pointed out that the evidence indicates that there were many Jews named Jesus (Y'shua) in the 1st century, And that for most of them we know next to nothing, other than the fact that their name occurs in early documents, and engraved upon 1st century CE ossuaries
That is no 'Jesus story' but a statement of the historical and archaeological facts.
You error when you claim that there was no Jew named Jesus (Y'shua) in the 1st century.
If they lived lives, which should be obvious that they did, before they died, then they must have each had life stories whether we know what those stories contained or not. We have no way of knowing if, or where, or when, or whom may have embellished the story of one of these many 1st century Jesus's.

And actually my position has been for years, and often stated that there never was any actual individual upon whom these stories were based.
The NT texts were fabricated from snippets of texts and tropes lifted from The OT and imaginatively recombined and embellished in an oral transmission and tradition long before being written down. But there never was any real person that was being written about.

A stack of 70+ 1st century CE ossuaries with the name Jesus (Y'shua) engraved in stone are rock solid evidences that there were Jewish men named Jesus in the 1st century.
It is your claim that there was no person named Jesus in the 1st century that has NO support.

More sense than your your utterly stupid claim that there were no Jewish men named Jesus in the 1st century.

What do I imagine happened in the 1st century? Tell me all about whatever it is that I suposedly imagine.
There is a lot of evidence that there were Jewish men named Jesus in the 1st century. Do a little forking research on the subject, so you don't sound so ignorant.
It does not require any imagination, and no one needs be a genius to establish that there were plenty of Jewish men named Jesus (Y'shua) in 1st century CE Palestine.
But it takes one hell of a lot of imagination on your part to come up with the stupid claim that there were no Jewish men named Jesus (Y'shua) during the 1st century CE

It is a STORY aa. Do you understand what a STORY is?
Do you also think Rumplestiltskin could spin hair into gold because a STORY says that he could?
I have read the NT through many times. Even in the Hebrew language. Have you?

I have invented NO Jesus story. I have presented NO Jesus story, I believe NO Jesus story.
Now if you wish to claim otherwise, DO tell us all exactly what are the details of my alleged 'Jesus' story' you claim that I have invented.
Type out even the first fucking verse of this fucking story! :angry:
You CANNOT because there isn't any.

Forum rules prevent me from telling you what you are.

aa5874

Please, look at your Jesus story. Can't you even remember what you wrote???

Where did you get that Y'shua story from??/ When did this happen??? When did people want a te'shua whom would naturally be a y'shua (Jesus)??

What stories were invented, when, where???

Where are your 1st century dated sources for when this could have happened???

Duke Leto

Oooh, hijacking! Take this thread to Cuba!



Alternately,