Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 09-11-2006, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Excuse me, but are you preaching?
I take offense to that.
Can you explain the verse

Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then we which are alive and remain? They're dead.

Is the explaining and expounding of a position "preaching"? Is "preaching" not the explaining and expounding of a position?
Infidels and Atheists engage in explaining and expounding against The Scriptures, and this is not "preaching"? Oh well, gain your say.

Quote:

"Then we which are alive and remain ..."

We that believe, believe that the "we" is the collective "we", applicable to the believers that are alive at that date.

Quote:

Then we which are alive and remain? They're dead.

These that are "dead" ("asleep") v.13-16 shall be raised first, (v.16) and brought with Him. "we", the living, shall see them all at that day.

Sheshbazzar · 09-11-2006, 08:43 PM

That Paul did not expect to remain "alive and remain" until the Day of His glorious Appearing is evident in this passage;

Quote:

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the
fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained,

(Phil. 3:10-12)

His desire was that he would be found among those saints raised from their "sleep" (death), not that he would be among those remaining alive on earth at the Second Coming, but be amongst them raised from the dead, coming with The Messiah at that Day.

GenesisNemesis · 09-11-2006, 09:51 PM

What about Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And they also which pierced Him? Doesn't that mean the people who executed Him?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/end.html

Sheshbazzar · 09-12-2006, 06:32 AM

Quote:

If in this life only we have hope in The Messiah, we are of men the most miserable.
But now The Messiah is risen from the dead, and became the firstfruits of them that sleep.
For since by man (the first Adam) came death, by man also comes the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in The Messiah, ALL shall be made alive.
But every man in his own order: The Messiah the firstfruits: afterward they that are The Messiah's at His coming

Quote:

And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them , and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of YAH'hoshua, and for the word of YAH, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his icon, neither had received the "mark" upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with The Messiah a thousand years
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Much more detail can be provided, but it would profit you more to do your own study, and searching of the Scriptures, because apparently up to this day you have been engaged in only seeking out which texts can be misapplied to support your erroneous foregone conclusions.

Sheshbazzar · 09-12-2006, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

What about Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And they also which pierced Him? Doesn't that mean the people who executed Him?

All things are possible with Yahweh, in this instance, it is also well possible that He will give His enemies a respite and awaken them momentarily from their dirt nap to see the coming of His King of Ages.
But they shall not remain alive, nor be allowed to participate in that thousand years of peace and prosperity, but again sleep to await the final Judgment.

Several examples exist within The Scriptures of ha'Elohim bringing forth the long dead and buried from the dust momentarily to be witness, and to confirm His power to do so.
Now touching on those of that generation. who beheld those things with their own eyes, they all are not dead, but still live and yet walk among men His living witnesses.
Lazarus died once, (for it is appointed to man to die once, but after that the resurrection) By The Word of YAH, he was again brought alive and resurrected from death, to die no more.

Decypher · 09-13-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Remember I said that "He spoke ambiguously", and His hearers interpreted His sayings so as to suit themselves, if they were misled, it was only by their own erroneous interpretations and their own faulty conclusions."
"Speaking ambiguously" or teaching in parables is not dishonest, His elect all get the essential message, while the rebellious and gainsaying will all end up being hoist by their own petards of faulty interpretations and rebellious reasonings

Let me quote you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Now with respect to the "apocalyptic" passages in the Gospels, it is my belief that these sayings were originally spoken in Aramaic, with the time tense deliberately kept ambiguous, but whatever the language, they were carefully contrived to convince the listeners that they of "this (then present) generation" would be the ones who would "see all these things" (but they didn't)
Or to put it another way, He was a great "motivational speaker" whose mission was to motivate His listeners

You did indeed say something about ambiguity, (and perhaps that is a problem in itself), but you also said, "they [the words of Jesus] were carefully contrived to convince the listeners... [of something false]"

Now if people listening to Jesus end up believing something false, how can it be, "only by their own erroneous interpretations"? Is it not obvious that Jesus would be responsible in that circumstance? Is it not obvious that Jesus is being dishonest? What you are saying seems to be incoherent.

Decypher · 09-13-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

You rather obviously jumped to some in forming your reply to this statement

You have switched the subject over to a different post! Please don't waste time.

Decypher · 09-13-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Providing what your quotations lack

Matthew 24:33 So likewise you, WHEN you see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 13:29 So you in like manner, WHEN you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Luke 31:31 So likewise you, WHEN you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of YHWH is nigh at hand.

In each of the verses you cited, the preceding verse set the context

In each of the verses you cited, the preceding verses provided the proper context.
This is not a matter of whether the Scriptures are true, or whether these things are actually going to happen, but of exegesis, of allowing the text to convey what they were intended to convey, rather than esegesis, removing the context, making them appear to give to support an erroneous presupposition. The "generation" being spoken of is that generation that will see the fulfillment of ALL of these things, not the generation that was present at that time.

Quote:

Matthew 24:33-34 KJV

[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Verse 33 is perfectly compatible with verse 34, if verse 34 is saying "this present generation". I can't see any reason that verse 34 has to be talking about a generation which will see the signs. And if it were saying that, shouldn't it really say "that generation" rather than "this generation"?

Sheshbazzar · 09-13-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decypher

Verse 33 is perfectly compatible with verse 34, if verse 34 is saying "this present generation". I can't see any reason that verse 34 has to be talking about a generation which will see the signs.

And if it were saying that, shouldn't it really say "that generation" rather than "this generation"?

No, not necessarily, if the "generation" being referred to would be the generation that did "see all these things".
But what do The Scriptures reveal about these matters? "That you (ought to) be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets,"

Quote:

1. "For Behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2. I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of YHW-shaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

3. And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4. Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly [and] speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

5. Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

6. The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7. Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:

8. And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for YHWH hath spoken [it].

9. Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10. Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears: let the weak say, I [am] strong.

11. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O YHWH.

12. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness [is] great.

14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of YHWH [is] near in the valley of decision.

15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16. YHWH also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but YHWH [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17. So shall ye know that I [am] YHWH your Elohim dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18. And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of YHWH, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence [against] the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20. But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21. For I will cleanse their blood [that] I have not cleansed: for YHWH dwelleth in Zion." (Joel 3:1-21)

Is reflected in these sayings;

Quote:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken: And THEN....." (and ONLY "THEN...." (Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24, and Luke 21:25)

Quote:

7.The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9. And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. (Revelation 8:7-12)

The writer of Revelation did not believe that these things had already happened, nor did the early believers.
The context of The Scriptures from which the vision and prophecies of The Gospels were drawn, shows that these things did not (all) occur within that generation, and the myriad details have never yet been accomplished.
And He qualified the time of His coming in "glory" to be only AFTER all of these signs have been fulfilled.
If some thought that He would come before all of these dramatic signs were accomplished and made evident to all mankind, then they were and are guilty of not believing that testimony which He gave.

At this juncture, there would appear to be only two explanations;
1. YHWH, and The Prophets of old were mistaken, and thus YAH'hoshua The Messiah was mistaken, and because nothing significant along this line that has ever yet happened, nothing ever will happen. (the "unbelievers" or "skeptical" view)
2. There just remains a few earth shaking events to happen, and then He will come, just as He has said. (the "believers", that "hold fast" and "keep His words" view)
In conclusion, no amount of argument about how Matt 24 is to be interpreted is going to cause them that believe the predictions of The Prophets, to abandon their hope in the eventual fulfillment of all that has been predicted of old.

Quote:

"All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto YAHWEH: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before You."

Don't you believe it

Decypher · 09-15-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The context of The Scriptures from which the vision and prophecies of The Gospels were drawn, shows that these things did not (all) occur within that generation, and the myriad details have never yet been accomplished.
And He qualified the time of His coming in "glory" to be only AFTER all of these signs have been fulfilled.
If some thought that He would come before all of these dramatic signs were accomplished and made evident to all mankind, then they were and are guilty of not believing that testimony which He gave.

This line of argument is fallacious. That Jesus qualified his coming to be "only after" certain events is irrelevant. That doesn't save him from being a false prophet if he also predicted his coming, and those preceding events, would take place within a certain time. (Which has now elapsed.)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-11-2006, 09:51 PM	#103
GenesisNemesis Contributor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A pale blue oblate spheroid. Posts: 20,351	What about Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. And they also which pierced Him? Doesn't that mean the people who executed Him? http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/end.html

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.