GenesisNemesis

Isaiah 34:10. It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.

Now, let's look at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which uses the word "generation".

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and Earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not apss away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and Earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Why would it be used in different context if Isaiah 34:10 says "generation to generation"? Because He's only talking about one generation? Oh come on, that's like saying "She floats because she's made out of wood!"

Kosh

It's an established clinical fact that you only need to wait 15 minutes for a second coming.

Let's move on!

Chili

Isaiah is about is fornication while the gospels are about salvation.

Sheshbazzar

Providing what your quotations lack

Matthew 24:33 So likewise you, WHEN you see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 13:29 So you in like manner, WHEN you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Luke 31:31 So likewise you, WHEN you see these things come to pass, know you that the kingdom of YHWH is nigh at hand.
In each of the verses you cited, the preceding verse set the context
In each of the verses you cited, the preceding verses provided the proper context.
This is not a matter of whether the Scriptures are true, or whether these things are actually going to happen, but of exegesis, of allowing the text to convey what they were intended to convey, rather than esegesis, removing the context, making them appear to give to support an erroneous presupposition. The "generation" being spoken of is that generation that will see the fulfillment of ALL of these things, not the generation that was present at that time.

Sheshbazzar

That generation DID NOT see all of these things, indeed no generation YET, has seen "all these things", and perhaps they never will happen, however the prophecy of the Second Coming cannot rightly be discredited nor discounted at any time prior to its designated perquisites coming to pass.

Sven

Your interpretation makes the phrase "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." quite redundant.
According to you, Jesus essentially says: "There will be a generation who will see this and that, and the generation won't end until they've seen it all."

And you indeed want us to take this seriously?

Fortuna

I agree. He is saying that when you (you is a subjective pronoun here, and it refers to the people to which he is addressing)

(Also note that I am going to remove he olde english and replace it with modern english, it's already difficult enough to decipher, and we don;t need to use an archaic dialect that hasn;t been used in 400 years and no-one has bothered to update. Correct me if you think I get an olde to new translation incorrect, but I don't think I will

Yes, this is the very next verse after the one you quoted above (24:33, 24:34). So, again, addressing those same people he says to them ;

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass, until all these things are fulfilled. The skies [Heaven] and earth will pass away, but my words will not [pass away]"

So, once again he is addressing the same group as in 33, and telling them that "this generation" willl not be gone before they see those things happen.

The question is, are the people whom he is addressing also those he refers to as "this generation". I've a feeling that the greek might tells us something here. (As those of us who do translations know very well that sometimes these are approximations and sometimes such words are not even literally in the other language but are needed in the target language to convey the same meaning).

. The word "this" in english is a used general pronoun used to refer to a person or object that is present, nearby or just mentioned. It can also used as a referent to another noun, usually either for a comparative or for emp[hasis(i.e. "this person vs that person", "this henious crime").

According to the greek the word is "houtos"(omicron,upsilon,tau,omicron,sigma) and it has a similiar usage as our english "this" but it looks like its use is much more immediate and less abstract. In other words, it seems to be used to refer to something that is physically present in most usages, or to something that was just mentioned.

So, let's put that in for notation, and include 33.emphasis mine;

33 So likewise* with you*, you see all these things, [you will] know that it is near, even at the doors.
Truly I say to you, this generation [that is present before me now] will not pass, until all these things are fulfilled. The skies [Heaven] and earth will pass away, but my words will not [pass away]".

*(the "likewise with you" is a reference to a parable just told (that seems to make it even evidently even more immediate, it refers to those to whom he is speaking)[/I]

The first line Jesus is telling them that just as he just old them in the paraable it will be likewise with them (those to whom he is addressing) it is THEY (whom he is addressing) who will see these things and that it is this generation (thosdse right before him who he is addressing, which also refers to them from the last sentence as "you".

There can be very little doubt that the meaning here is that, whatever these things are to which he is referring, them, to whom he is sepaking, referred to as you and used in the referent as "this generation" (there is no doubt at all here that he is referring to those to whom he is speaking, whether you take it as an immediate this, or as a referent to the You in the preceeding line)

He is saying that they will see all of this happen. More specifically, that they will not pass (that is, they will not be dead) until all of this happens.


I'm sorry Sheshbazzar but there is no way around this. The meaning of this is as clear to me in greek as it is in english.


Exactly the same thing is being said. (notice the extreme similiarity to Matthew, do you think the original greek is just as similiar. Well I'll be darned, IT IS ! That's simply amazing don't you think, that 2 writers from different places and backgrounds write this using almost exactly the sasme words and phraseology ?)

Almost exactly the same thing is being said and once again the referent are those he is addressing.

(notice again, while this one is only slightly different, the similiarity to Matthew and Mark, and again in the original greek. Extremely similiar words and phraseology being used.

Now, this should be setting off red flags, it did for me.



Yes, I agree, and it defines the referent as the people he is addressing.


So far, I agree, but then you say ;

No, clearly it DOES refer to the people to which Jesus is addressing. That is why he uses the word "YOU", and the refeent pronoun "this".

It certainly does refer to the very people that Jesus is addressing and the language supports that, ESPECIALLY the preceeding verse establishes clearly that he is referring exactly to those whom he is speaking. It is they who will see these things happen.


Sorry Sheshbazzar but there is no way that it could possibly mean anything else. The context and the language are clear. It is the peopl that Jesus is addressing who are "this" generation. Any other interpretation is strained.

Your own presentation of the preceeding verse actually makes the case that it is those Jesus is addressing to which this applies.

Chili

Each and every Christian will have seen all of those things and so to deny any one of them is to affirm the Isaiah passage while looking for a sign of the times in this generation and every generation after that.

The claim to have saints in heaven means that the second coming has been for those in heaven.

Sheshbazzar

Sorry Fortuna, but we are not at all persuaded by your interpretation.
The subjective pronoun "you" is employed thousands of times throughout the Bible, in senses referring not only to the people (generation) being addressed, but to succeeding generations, and many peoples, as for example;
The "YOU" in the pronouncement is directed toward "ALL", and more importantly to a generation that was yet to come.

The supporting context and referent of the Synoptics thrice repeated prophecy concerning the darkening of the sun and the moon, and stars falling from heaven are to be found in Isaiah 13:9-11, Ezekiel 32:7-9 and Joel 3:9-16. (and many other supporting Scriptures)

These things DID NOT take place or come to pass in the same generation that they were originally prophesied within (although employing the word "you"), nor were they being predicted to come to pass in that generation being addressed in the Synoptics, as is indicated by thorough analysis of the contents and context of the foundational Scriptural texts that the Synoptics were only reiterating.

While perhaps even some who were present interpreted the sayings as you have, the required perquisite foregoing signs of the sun moon and stars, effectively forestalls the fulfillment of the Second Coming until the generation that sees the signs of the sun and the moon darkened, and the stars falling from heaven, Then and only then, AFTER those signs, shall The Son of Man come in the clouds. Thus those so interpreting waited in vain for those predicted signs in their generation.
Now whether the prophesy is true or not, this is what IS actually predicted, and cannot correctly be deemed a failed prophecy at any time before the perquisite signs are seen by "ALL".
Interesting things going on in the Middle East, perhaps they will yet find the way to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

This will be my last post for a time, as I am departing on a ten day trip

GenesisNemesis

:devil1: don't talk about the war in the Middle East like it's a good thing fulfilling your stupid prophecies, I have relatives over there