Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 06-04-2009, 07:30 AM

FrankenChrist by Mary Shalomlly

Author's note - this story may be too scary for some IIDB readers not used to ancient secret cult rituals of drinking human blood and eating human flesh. It is best read at night by the light of the computer monitor with all of the lights turned off and the children already in bed. It is best accompanied by some flesh colored wafers and one glass of very red wine.

At a secret Scriptorium far beneath the local synagogue in Transyermith Dr. FrankenChrist, an old Hellenized Jew, has just come in from the pouring rain. The laboratory is filled with test tubes, beakers, wires, medical apparatus and two large operating tables. On each operating table is a body of literature covered by a sheet with many connections running between the bodies and the medical apparatus.

JW:
Ohh, that's scary. Reeally scarry. 4 sources have been identified for the original Gospel "Mark":
1) The Jewish Bible

2) Josephus

3) Paul

4) Historical witness

The question this Thread will try to answer is can these 4 sources reasonably be the building blocks for all, or at least most, of "Mark"?

Reconstructing this Monster Gospel I see each of the 4 contributing as follows:

1) The Jewish Bible

The Jewish Bible is the heart of the story, giving it purpose and motivation. It is the past and the prophesied future.

2) Josephus

Josephus is the legs of the story giving a historical setting that the characters must walk through.

3) Paul

Paul is the brains of the story explaining how the Jewish Bible prophesied FrankenChrist.

4) Historical witness

Historical witness are the intestines of the story. Real historical witness is documented by Q, representing a Teaching & Healing Ministry. The only part of the Tale that could possibly be historical. Paul and than "Mark", following Paul, treat this historical witness as shit.

Putting the pieces together we get off to a good start:

Mark 1

Quote:

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

2 Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight;

JW:
Hard to miss the source of the Prologue here. It is explicitly the Jewish Bible.

For further study, the Mythical Vorkosigan's:

Sources of Mark

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 06-06-2009, 08:39 AM

FrankenChrist

JW:
4 sources have been identified for the original Gospel "Mark":
1) The Jewish Bible

2) Josephus

3) Paul

4) Historical witness
The question this Thread will try to answer is can these 4 sources reasonably be the building blocks for all, or at least most, of "Mark"?

Reconstructing this Monster Gospel I see each of the 4 contributing as follows:

1) The Jewish Bible

The Jewish Bible is the heart of the story, giving it purpose and motivation. It is the past and the prophesied future.

2) Josephus

Josephus is the legs of the story giving a historical setting that the characters must walk through.

3) Paul

Paul is the brains of the story explaining how the Jewish Bible prophesied FrankenChrist.

4) Historical witness

Historical witness are the intestines of the story. Real historical witness is documented by Q, representing a Teaching & Healing Ministry. The only part of the Tale that could possibly be historical. Paul and than "Mark", following Paul, treat this historical witness as shit.

Putting the pieces together we get off to a good start:

Mark 1:1-3

Hard to miss the source of the Prologue here. It is explicitly the Jewish Bible.

Next:

Mark 1:4-8

Quote:

4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

6 And John was clothed with camel`s hair, and [had] a leathern girdle about his loins, and did eat locusts and wild honey.

7 And he preached, saying, There cometh after me he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

8 I baptized you in water; But he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit.

Note that "Mark's" source here is Josephus for the first character of the narrative:

Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII

Quote:

2. Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words,

Note the parallels to "Mark":

1) John is a Baptizer

2) Herod kills John

3) John's baptism is qualified

4) Mention of the "putting away of sins"

5) Crowds came to John

The key difference is that while Josephus makes a point that John's baptism did not remove sins, a Jewish viewpoint, "Mark" says that it does, a non-Jewish viewpoint. Thus "Mark" is using Josephus to provide a setting for his narrative but it's not intended to be limited by the historical.

For further study, the Mythical Vorkosigan's:

Sources of Mark

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Clivedurdle · 06-06-2009, 08:56 AM

Ockham - Sources - Septaguint and Homer, written as one of a series of fictional plays by a Roman using current affairs.

His name?

JoeWallack · 06-14-2009, 06:53 AM

FrankenChrist

JW:
4 sources have been identified for the original Gospel "Mark":
1) The Jewish Bible

2) Josephus

3) Paul

4) Historical witness
The question this Thread will try to answer is can these 4 sources reasonably be the building blocks for all, or at least most, of "Mark"?

Reconstructing this Monster Gospel I see each of the 4 contributing as follows:

1) The Jewish Bible

The Jewish Bible is the heart of the story, giving it purpose and motivation. It is the past and the prophesied future.

2) Josephus

Josephus is the legs of the story giving a historical setting that the characters must walk through.

3) Paul

Paul is the brains of the story explaining how the Jewish Bible prophesied FrankenChrist.

4) Historical witness

Historical witness are the intestines of the story. Real historical witness is documented by Q, representing a Teaching & Healing Ministry. The only part of the Tale that could possibly be historical. Paul and than "Mark", following Paul, treat this historical witness as shit.

Putting the pieces together:

Mark 1:1-3 = Jewish Bible.

Mark 1:4-8 = Josephus

Mark 1:9-13

Quote:

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him:

11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

12 And straightway the Spirit driveth him forth into the wilderness.

13 And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan; And he was with the wild beasts; And the angels ministered unto him.

Compare to:

1_Corinthians_10

Quote:

1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;

4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.

5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Note the parallels to "Mark":

1) Baptism

2) Baptism under the sky.

3) Baptism in water.

4) The Spirit follows them.

5) Wilderness setting.

It sure looks like "Mark" used Paul here for his baptism setting.

For further study, the Mythical Vorkosigan's:

Sources of Mark

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Clivedurdle · 06-14-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Zenodotus’ editions of Homer and Hesiod were improved upon by the fourth librarian, Aristophanes of Byzantium (c. 257–180 bc), who also edited the lyric poets, setting out their verses according to a systematic metrical theory; edited Aristophanes, Menander, and perhaps other comic poets; edited Sophocles and at least part of Euripides; and compiled useful summaries of the plots of plays with details of their productions. His Lexeis (“Readings”) was the most important of the numerous lexicographical works produced at this time, which included lexicons of particular authors and dialects; he also wrote some of the many treatises about literature that were now appearing.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...-of-Alexandria

http://www.freeratio.org//showthread.php?t=117926

On chiasms.

JoeWallack · 06-23-2009, 07:15 AM

FrankenChrist

FrankenChrist by Mary Shalomlly Creator of FrankenChrist

Author's note - this story may be too scary for some IIDB readers not used to ancient secret cult rituals of drinking human blood and eating human flesh. It is best read at night by the light of the computer monitor with all of the lights turned off and the children already in bed. It is best accompanied by some flesh colored wafers and one glass of very red wine.

At a secret Scriptorium far beneath the local synagogue in Transyermith Dr. FrankenChrist, an old Hellenized Jew, has just come in from the pouring rain. The laboratory is filled with test tubes, beakers, wires, medical apparatus and two large operating tables. On each operating table is a body of literature covered by a sheet with many connections running between the bodies and the medical apparatus.

Dr. FrankenChrist: Oy vay. Could you have found a more dangerous
neighborhood? I had to run here from the tombs
in the rain and lightning. Between the muggers and
the schvartzes. Then I'm reminded once a month of
the biggest goniff of all when I write my rent check.
Is everything ready Ignorenaeus?

Ignorenaeus: Yes your Holiness. Can I leave now
to lead mass?

Dr. FrankenChrist: It's "master" Ignorenaeus and you know I am not
the Pope nor is there any such
creature. The psychiatrist said you are just faking so
stop pretending to be a Priest and trying to get
workmen's comp disability. And
stop slouching, you're going to hurt your back.

Ignorenaeus: Yes your Holiness.

JW:
4 sources have been identified for the original Gospel "Mark":
1) The Jewish Bible

2) Josephus

3) Paul

4) Historical witness
The question this Thread will try to answer is can these 4 sources reasonably be the building blocks for all, or at least most, of "Mark"?

Reconstructing this Monster Gospel I see each of the 4 contributing as follows:

1) The Jewish Bible

The Jewish Bible is the heart of the story, giving it purpose and motivation. It is the past and the prophesied future.

2) Josephus

Josephus is the legs of the story giving a historical setting that the characters must walk through.

3) Paul

Paul is the brains of the story explaining how the Jewish Bible prophesied FrankenChrist.

4) Historical witness

Historical witness are the intestines of the story. Real historical witness is documented by Q, representing a Teaching & Healing Ministry. The only part of the Tale that could possibly be historical. Paul and than "Mark", following Paul, treat this historical witness as shit.

Putting the pieces together:

Mark 1:1-3 = Jewish Bible.

Mark 1:4-8 = Josephus

Mark 1:9-13 = Paul

Mark 1:14-20

Quote:

14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.

16 And passing along by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishers.

17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

18 And straightway they left the nets, and followed him.

19 And going on a little further, he saw James the [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the boat mending the nets.

20 And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went after him.

We go now to the Mythical Vorkosigan for the source:

Sources of Mark

Quote:

v16-20: One important literary model for the accounts of Jesus' miraculous healings is the Elijah-Elisha cycle of stories in the Old Testament (a partial list of scholarly works on the issue may be found in Brodie (2000, p80-1). The OT source for this story, like so many in Mark, is the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Brodie has shown that this passage is modeled on the Elijah story in 1 Kings 19:19-21:

19 And he goeth thence, and findeth Elisha son of Shaphat, and he is plowing; twelve yoke [are] before him, and he [is] with the twelfth; and Elijah passeth over unto him, and casteth his robe upon him,
20 and he forsaketh the oxen, and runneth after Elijah, and saith, `Let me give a kiss, I pray thee, to my father and to my mother, and I go after thee.' And he saith to him, `Go, turn back, for what have I done to thee?'
21 And he turneth back from after him, and taketh the yoke of oxen, and sacrificeth it, and with instruments of the oxen he hath boiled their flesh, and giveth to the people, and they eat, and he riseth, and goeth after Elijah, and serveth him.(YLT)

Note the parallels, listed in Brodie (2000, p91):

*the action begins with a caller...and with motion toward those to be called;
*those called are working (plowing/fishing);
*the call, whether by gesture (Elijah) or word (Jesus) is brief;
*later, the means of livelihood are variously destroyed or mended, the plow is destroyed, but the nets are mended -- a typical inversion of images...;
*after further movement, there is a leave-taking of home;
*there is also a leave-taking of other workers;
*finally, those who are called follow the caller.

Additional parallels, not noted by Brodie, include Elisha plowing with twelve yoke of oxen, just as Jesus will spread his religion with twelve disciples. Further, Elisha drives a pair of oxen, just as Jesus later appoints a pair of brothers.

Bonus material for Solo = Note that the arch-type model from the Jewish Bible keeps changing:

"Mark" = Elijah

"Matthew" = Moses

"Luke" = Isaiah

"John" = God

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Susan2 · 06-23-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

FrankenChrist

FrankenChrist by Mary Shalomlly Creator of FrankenChrist

Author's note - this story may be too scary for some IIDB readers not used to ancient secret cult rituals of drinking human blood and eating human flesh. It is best read at night by the light of the computer monitor with all of the lights turned off and the children already in bed. It is best accompanied by some flesh colored wafers and one glass of very red wine.

At a secret Scriptorium far beneath the local synagogue in Transyermith Dr. FrankenChrist, an old Hellenized Jew, has just come in from the pouring rain. The laboratory is filled with test tubes, beakers, wires, medical apparatus and two large operating tables. On each operating table is a body of literature covered by a sheet with many connections running between the bodies and the medical apparatus.

Dr. FrankenChrist: Oy vay. Could you have found a more dangerous
neighborhood? I had to run here from the tombs
in the rain and lightning. Between the muggers and
the schvartzes. Then I'm reminded once a month of
the biggest goniff of all when I write my rent check.
Is everything ready Ignorenaeus?

Ignorenaeus: Yes your Holiness. Can I leave now
to lead mass?

Dr. FrankenChrist: It's "master" Ignorenaeus and you know I am not
the Pope nor is there any such
creature. The psychiatrist said you are just faking so
stop pretending to be a Priest and trying to get
workmen's comp disability. And
stop slouching, you're going to hurt your back.

Ignorenaeus: Yes your Holiness.

JW:
4 sources have been identified for the original Gospel "Mark":
1) The Jewish Bible

2) Josephus

3) Paul

4) Historical witness
The question this Thread will try to answer is can these 4 sources reasonably be the building blocks for all, or at least most, of "Mark"?

Reconstructing this Monster Gospel I see each of the 4 contributing as follows:

1) The Jewish Bible

The Jewish Bible is the heart of the story, giving it purpose and motivation. It is the past and the prophesied future.

2) Josephus

Josephus is the legs of the story giving a historical setting that the characters must walk through.

3) Paul

Paul is the brains of the story explaining how the Jewish Bible prophesied FrankenChrist.

4) Historical witness

Historical witness are the intestines of the story. Real historical witness is documented by Q, representing a Teaching & Healing Ministry. The only part of the Tale that could possibly be historical. Paul and than "Mark", following Paul, treat this historical witness as shit.

Putting the pieces together:

Mark 1:1-3 = Jewish Bible.

Mark 1:4-8 = Josephus

Mark 1:9-13 = Paul

Mark 1:14-20

Quote:

14 Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel.

16 And passing along by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishers.

17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

18 And straightway they left the nets, and followed him.

19 And going on a little further, he saw James the [son] of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the boat mending the nets.

20 And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went after him.

We go now to the Mythical Vorkosigan for the source:

Sources of Mark

Quote:

v16-20: One important literary model for the accounts of Jesus' miraculous healings is the Elijah-Elisha cycle of stories in the Old Testament (a partial list of scholarly works on the issue may be found in Brodie (2000, p80-1). The OT source for this story, like so many in Mark, is the Elijah-Elisha cycle. Brodie has shown that this passage is modeled on the Elijah story in 1 Kings 19:19-21:

19 And he goeth thence, and findeth Elisha son of Shaphat, and he is plowing; twelve yoke [are] before him, and he [is] with the twelfth; and Elijah passeth over unto him, and casteth his robe upon him,
20 and he forsaketh the oxen, and runneth after Elijah, and saith, `Let me give a kiss, I pray thee, to my father and to my mother, and I go after thee.' And he saith to him, `Go, turn back, for what have I done to thee?'
21 And he turneth back from after him, and taketh the yoke of oxen, and sacrificeth it, and with instruments of the oxen he hath boiled their flesh, and giveth to the people, and they eat, and he riseth, and goeth after Elijah, and serveth him.(YLT)

Note the parallels, listed in Brodie (2000, p91):

*the action begins with a caller...and with motion toward those to be called;
*those called are working (plowing/fishing);
*the call, whether by gesture (Elijah) or word (Jesus) is brief;
*later, the means of livelihood are variously destroyed or mended, the plow is destroyed, but the nets are mended -- a typical inversion of images...;
*after further movement, there is a leave-taking of home;
*there is also a leave-taking of other workers;
*finally, those who are called follow the caller.

Additional parallels, not noted by Brodie, include Elisha plowing with twelve yoke of oxen, just as Jesus will spread his religion with twelve disciples. Further, Elisha drives a pair of oxen, just as Jesus later appoints a pair of brothers.

Bonus material for Solo = Note that the arch-type model from the Jewish Bible keeps changing:

"Mark" = Elijah

"Matthew" = Moses

"Luke" = Isaiah

"John" = God

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Do you know what they leaven wafers with Joseph?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilla

Starve the cold, feed the fever.................:Cheeky:

aa5874 · 06-24-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Mark 1:9-13

Quote:

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in the Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens rent asunder, and the Spirit as a dove descending upon him:

11 And a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I am well pleased.

12 And straightway the Spirit driveth him forth into the wilderness.

13 And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan; And he was with the wild beasts; And the angels ministered unto him.

Compare to:

1_Corinthians_10

Quote:

1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;

4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.

5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Note the parallels to "Mark":

1) Baptism

2) Baptism under the sky.

3) Baptism in water.

4) The Spirit follows them.

5) Wilderness setting.

It sure looks like "Mark" used Paul here for his baptism setting.

For further study, the Mythical Vorkosigan's:

Sources of Mark

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

There is virtually nothing in Mark 1.9-13 that parallels 1 Corinthians 10. The author of Mark made reference to Jesus, the author of Corinthians made reference to Moses.

1 Corinthians 10 parallels passages found in Exodus or Hebrew Scripture.

Ex 13:21 -

Quote:

And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.

Ex 19:9 -

Quote:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

Ex 14:21 -

Quote:

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Ex 14:22 -

Quote:

And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

The writer Paul used over a hundred passages from Hebrew Scripture and hardly ever acknowledged that he did.

Paul wrote nothing about John the Baptist or the temptation of Jesus. The author of Mark did not need the author of 1 Corinthians 10 at all.

jakejonesiv · 07-09-2009, 07:33 AM

Joe,

I like the premise of the OP. I have been arguing for years that Gospel Jesus is an impossible construct, a Frankenstein made of disparate parts.

Jake

JoeWallack · 07-11-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Joe,

I like the premise of the OP. I have been arguing for years that Gospel Jesus is an impossible construct, a Frankenstein made of disparate parts.

Jake

JW:
The Jakester. Traditional Christian Bible scholarship has a backwards approach to determining history. They assume:

1) The Impossible is Possible so Impossible claims are not evidence regarding Possible claims.

2) Because of 1) the default position is any Possible claim is historical.

This is Theology and not History. Because these assumptions are wrong any conclusions based on these assumptions carry little weight.

Historical assumptions are:

1) The Impossible is Impossible.

2) Impossible claims create serious doubt as to Possible claims. If the level of Impossible claims is significant than the default position is that any Possible claim is not historical.

This is History.

Specifically, regarding the original Gospel "Mark", it consists primarily of the Impossible so the default position of Possible claims is that they are Fiction. A literary analysis of "Mark" reveals three major sources used in a fictional way, The Jewish Bible, Paul and Josephus. Note the cumulative weight of the fictional conclusion due to use of multiple sources.

The purpose of this Thread is to consider what is left after we take the known fictional sources out. The default position for what is left is that it is fiction but we need to consider what is left individually and in total to evaluate possible historicity. What is left is largely Jesus' Teaching and Healing Ministry. This fits a Possible historical framework as follows:

1) Jesus had a Teaching and Healing Ministry.

2) Historical witness taught that Jesus had a Teaching and Healing Ministry.

3) Historical witness wrote Q to document Jesus' teachings. There was no reason to write a narrative because historical witness had memory.

4) Paul rejected Jesus' teaching as important. Paul taught that Jesus' resurrection and death was important. Paul had no memory of either so he had to write to explain the significance. Gnostic.

5) Papias is interested in historical witness to Jesus. That is why he refers to Jesus' Teachings. He is not interested in Jesus narratives because that is what the Gnostics are using. The Irony is that Christianity has traditionally taken Papias to be the best evidence of the historicity of "Mark". He is actually the opposite, the best evidence that at the time "Mark" was not considered historical as he does not refer to it or quote from it.

6) "Matthew" converts "Mark" from being anti-historical to historical for the Jews.

7) Marcion is the earliest attributed user of a Gospel (by the orthodox!) and converts "Mark", retaining the anti-history, into the Gospel for the Gentiles. Just as Paul converted historical witness into Revelation. Gnostic.

8) The orthodox flip "Luke" from anti-history to history.

9) "John" is originally Gnostic and is itself converted to history.

Since the cumulative history of all Gospels shows a battle between Historical/Revelation claim this strengthens the theory that "Mark" is part of this battle, on the side of Revelation, but is Reacting to history, just as one of its main sources Paul did.

Methinks this reaction of "Mark" to possible historical claims of Jesus is the closest we can get to possible history of Jesus. The other Gospels use "Mark" as a primary source so they are exponentially weaker potential evidence for history.

Note that the forged ending of "Mark" The Original Ending of "Mark". Debate - James Snapp, Jr. verses Joseph Wallack was not only not written by "Mark" but does not even logically follow from what preceded. This indicates that the Forger knew he had no access to historical witness and was forced to use something that was already written.

Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

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06-06-2009, 08:56 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Ockham - Sources - Septaguint and Homer, written as one of a series of fictional plays by a Roman using current affairs. His name?

07-09-2009, 07:33 AM	#9
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Joe, I like the premise of the OP. I have been arguing for years that Gospel Jesus is an impossible construct, a Frankenstein made of disparate parts. Jake

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