aa5874

Justin Martyr did claim that the Memoirs of the Apostles or books of the Prophets were read in the Churches. Surely this implies that the Jesus story in the Memoirs was regarded in a similar manner as the writings of the Prophets.

First ApologyAgain, there is NOTHING about the Pauline letters from Justin.

It must be remembered that the Pauline letters SUPPOSEDLY went DIRECTLY to the Churches and should have Circulated WITHIN Churches yet it was the MEMOIRS of the Apostles that was known, read and CIRCULATED up to the mid 2nd century---NOT the Pauline Church letters.

The dated NT manuscript and Apologetic sources support the theory that the Pauline writings are ANTI-Marcionite Texts written some time in the mid 2nd century or later.

aa5874

It is most remarkable that the writings of Justin Martyr is corroborated and is compatible with the DATED NT manuscripts.

In the writings of Justin Martyr NO mention is made of Paul and Pauline letters and Origen would make a statement which appears to corroborate Justin lack of awareness of Pauline letters.

Celsus who wrote True Discource in the 2nd century ALSO did NOT mention Paul.

[u]Against Celsus 1.Against Celsus 2

Duvduv

Considering that the Old Testament comprises more than the Prophets it is peculiar that this statement only mentions them. Now if this is proof that the memoirs of unknown and unnamed apostles was considered as holy canonical writ along with the Old Testament, it is a wonder that the word Scriptures is not used with both.
And if there was no church canon yet apart from the Old Testament then it doesn't prove your point.

In any event if there were cities and towns with so many Christians isn't it amazing he never mentions any of them in the alleged time of the second century. - communities about which nothing is known at all?!

Duvduv

And...if they were all canonical Scriptures, WHO was authorized to canonize anything on behalf of the "church" in the second century?! Since he mentions all the communities this infers that their was uniformity and central authority unless anyone could canonize whatever they want. This makes no sense and the underlying assumption itself is a later invention of the orthodox.

aa5874

Again, you are illogical. Justin Martyr claimed the Memoirs of the Apostles OR the writings of the Prophets were read in the churches on Sundays so what you IMAGINE is useless.

The Memoirs of the Apostles did contain stories of Jesus based on references found in "First Apology" and "Dialogue with Trypho".

How many Christians did Justin mention??? Again, we see your imagination has gone wild. Justin mentioned no numbers.

Now, from "Against Celsus" it is claimed that Christians were operating in SECRET in the 2nd century because of the fear of being persecuted and Justin wrote to the Emperor and the Senate because he and other Christians were "WANTONLY ABUSED".


Against Celsus 1.1 First Apology Again, Justin is CORROBORATED by Non-Apologetic sources.

If Pauline writings did NOT exist in the 1st century then I would NOT expect any writings to have been found from the 1st century and that is PRECISELY what has happened.

I will ONLY develop my theory ON the ACTUAL dated NT Manuscripts and sources that are compatible with them.

Jesus and the Pauline characters were NOT 1st century characters before c 70 CE.

Duvduv

This makes no sense. Why would someone belonging to an illegal association be writing to the emperor with the expectation of that emperor legitimizing the sect which despite being underground is so well centrally controlled and widespread that everyone reads from the same very same books on Sunday without anyone knowing about them and their hierarchy and communities all over the place? And who appointed this Justin to appeal on behalf of all abused peoples when he doesn't even mention a single associate, predecessor, teacher or community of this VAST underground network that all believe and function the same way, i.e. according to the BELIEF SYSTEM OF JUSTIN??

Did that vast network include anyone who knew the epistles or only the four canonical gospels? But if this did not include the sect following the teachings of the epistles that emerged later, then why didn't the author(s) of the epistles know anything from the teachings of the VAST UNDERGROUND NETWORK of Justin's abused sect, and nothing of the teachings pertaining to the Davidic messiah and Elijah of that sect?!

aa5874

Again, your imagination has gone wild. I did NOT claim Justin knew of the FOUR Gospels of a Canon.

Please, please, please!!!! I stated what is WRITTEN that the Memoirs of the Apostles were READ in the Churches on Sundays.

Justin did NOT state he had FOUR Gospels and did NOT state that there was orthodoxy.

In fact, Justin Martyr claimed that so-called Heretics were called Christians even though they Blasphemed the name of Jesus.

Dialogue with Trypho The writings of Justin clearly show that there was NO orthodoxy up to the mid 2nd century and Origen would CORROBORATE Justin Martyr in De Principiis.

The Preface to De Principiis Please, forget about your imagination and actually READ what Justin wrote. The writings of Justin Martyr are CORROBORATED by the DATED NT manuscripts, Apologetic and Non-Apologetic sources.

The Pauline letters were UNKNOWN up to the mid-2nd century and had ZERO influence on the Jesus stories found in the short-ending gMark, the long-ending gMark, gMatthew and those mentioned in the MEMOIRS of the Apostles by Justin.

Duvduv

Yet they were ALL abused and ALL read from the same Memoirs of the Apostles and Prophets? Justin in his appeals to the emperor doesn't talk about any of this that you cite in the name of Origen in De Principiis. Yet even this "Origen" insists on a single Church tradition, which is HIS own.

"yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the apostles, and remaining in the Churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolical tradition."

And this "Origen" believes that Paul (unmentioned by Justin) is PART of this SAME CHRISTIANITY, that Justin didn't even know about?!

And therefore I think it sufficient to quote this one testimony of Paul from the Epistle to the Hebrews, in which he says: "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of the Egyptians." Moreover, that after His ascension into heaven He spake in His apostles, is shown by Paul in these words: "Or do you seek a proof of Christ who speaketh in me?"

And this Origen was ostensibly writing only some 50 years at most after Justin according to the 2nd century view.
And some 20 or 30 years after "Irenaeus." So the apostolic true tradition was always there but Justin didn't know about it, and of course Paul didn't know about all the Tanakh verses hinting at his Christ as the promised Davidic messiah which both Justin and Origen knew about.

So all of these changes occurred within a brief period of less than 50 years in the second century?!
The Paulines were incognito until the middle of the 2nd century when along came Justin who invoked verses from the Tanakh that were never invoked by Paul, advocating for his co-religionists of many different groups (all of which read from the very same Memoirs/gospels coincidentally), and then a couple of decades later "Irenaeus" knew all about the whole canon followed by Origen who claimed the pure apostolic succession of the Church including Paul that Justin never invoked or knew about.

aa5874

You seem incapable of understanding what is WRITTEN in "First Apology" and "Dialogue with Trypho" attributed to Justin Martyr.

Justin did NOT claim that ALL Christians read from the same Memoirs because he did CLEARLY state that many other sects were called Christians but they Blasphemed the name of Jesus.

Dialogue with Trypho

Duvduv

Oh sure. As early as barely a century after the supposed Jesus story there were just tons of sects all over just worth writing about. Or were they all in Rome to be abused and protected on the basis of Justin's advocacy? Or did he give the emperor a list of the good Christians to be protected while wiping out the fake ones ?
Sounds like a very creative fairy tale to me.
It's funny how you can consider the NT texts as invented stories and take these apologists so seriously rather than as novelists!