Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 04-19-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't understand what is absurd about people being hanged by the neck on the noose in the Book of Esther or in Genesis. If you want to bash the Book of Esther just tell me that there is no documentary evidence of a Queen Esther or Ahaseurus or Haman or Mordechai outside of Jewish sources! Why go as far as picking on the method of execution of Haman?

It states in the Talmud that if the Sanhedrin imposed capital punishment once in seventy years it would be considered a "bloody Sanhedrin." They did not impose the death penalty very often, which is more than we can say in our modern "enlightened" age. See tractate Makkot 7a.

As far as Jannaeus is concerned, the Talmud does not say that he crucified anyone. It says that he persecuted and killed the sages who escaped dto Egypt, including R. Yehoshua ben Perachia, who was accompanied by one Yeshu, the son of Yosef Pandera and Miriam.

I don't believe your opinion is even Talmudic, in fact the death of Haman was sometimes celebrated by Medieval Jewry as a Crucifxion, and this hurt the feelings of the poor Christians.

You said

Quote:

Anyway, the halacha is NOT impalement. It is where the hands are tied together and the body is hanged by the hands close to sunset, and the immediately removed.

As far as Haman is concerned, he was not hanged according to Jewish law, he was hanged by the noose, as was the baker in Egypt. As were ten of Haman's sons and then also his main wife (one of many) Zeresh.

There are different punishments for different offenses whereby there are TWO witnesses...

Your Haman/Baker opinion is bracketed by two clear references to the Talmud. Maybe this placement was a mistake, but I'm asking for you to clarify it and provide references if possible.

la70119 · 04-19-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

The Epistle of Barnabas (ch. 12) has the following passage:

"In like manner He points to the cross of Christ in another prophet, who says, And when shall these things be accomplished? And the Lord says, When a tree shall be bent down, and again arise, and when blood shall flow out of wood. Here again you have an intimation concerning the cross, and Him who should be crucified."

Barnabas presents "blood flowing out of wood" as a passage from the OT, but I cannot locate the original.

That's because Barnabas makes stuff up. I also don't know where he got the tree bending down and made to stand upright. Native Americans used to do that to saplings to mark the direction of trails. There is epigraphy that shows crosses were equipped with a projection that goes out, and then up at an angle. Here and here.

Barnabas also makes it sound like Jesus was force-fed vinegar from a nasty Roman toilet sponge and quotes something from tradition, which I can't find, either.

Epistle of Barnabas 7

Quote:

4 Attend carefully: And let all the priests alone eat the entrails unwashed with vinegar. 5 Wherefore? Since you are to give Me, who am to offer my flesh for the sins of My new people, gall with vinegar to drink, eat ye alone, while the people fasteth and waileth in sackcloth and ashes; that he might show that he must suffer at their hands.

"Gall" here is cholhn, which the LSJ records as both bile, gall; but also anger, wrath, and even as something that is a disgust to consume.

la70119 · 04-19-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't see the problem about the word Be-.
It was against the wall not onto the top.
However you mix several different issues altogether and it's difficult to follow.

Against the wall, on the top, what's the difference?

:huh:

You were the one who said it was definitely "in" and "into."

The several different issues I seem to be "mixing together" are your issues and they are all related.

There is no source that affirm the rabbis' fancy that the Egyptians, Philistines, Persians, or for that matter, the ancient Jews hanged people from the gallows with a rope noose. All the gentile sources that would affirm that they did flatly contradict the rabbis. So does Josephus and Philo, who, although one turned traitor and the other was Hellenic, were both Jews and remained Jews. So does the Hebrew Ezra 6:11, the Septuagint, the Old Latin, The Vulgate, etc.

Duvduv · 04-19-2012, 03:21 PM

In English, "in" is the same as within or inside, a location. Unfortunately nowadays the use of correct English is deteriorating. The word "into" is directional. The Hebrew word "al" means on or above or upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't see the problem about the word Be-.
It was against the wall not onto the top.
However you mix several different issues altogether and it's difficult to follow.

Against the wall, on the top, what's the difference?

:huh:

You were the one who said it was definitely "in" and "into."

Duvduv · 04-19-2012, 03:22 PM

It's very straightfoward, and no commentator describes the hanging - telia of the baker or Haman in any other way. You can check your closest set of Mikraot Gedolot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I don't understand what is absurd about people being hanged by the neck on the noose in the Book of Esther or in Genesis. If you want to bash the Book of Esther just tell me that there is no documentary evidence of a Queen Esther or Ahaseurus or Haman or Mordechai outside of Jewish sources! Why go as far as picking on the method of execution of Haman?

It states in the Talmud that if the Sanhedrin imposed capital punishment once in seventy years it would be considered a "bloody Sanhedrin." They did not impose the death penalty very often, which is more than we can say in our modern "enlightened" age. See tractate Makkot 7a.

As far as Jannaeus is concerned, the Talmud does not say that he crucified anyone. It says that he persecuted and killed the sages who escaped dto Egypt, including R. Yehoshua ben Perachia, who was accompanied by one Yeshu, the son of Yosef Pandera and Miriam.

I don't believe your opinion is even Talmudic, in fact the death of Haman was sometimes celebrated by Medieval Jewry as a Crucifxion, and this hurt the feelings of the poor Christians.

You said

Quote:

Anyway, the halacha is NOT impalement. It is where the hands are tied together and the body is hanged by the hands close to sunset, and the immediately removed.

As far as Haman is concerned, he was not hanged according to Jewish law, he was hanged by the noose, as was the baker in Egypt. As were ten of Haman's sons and then also his main wife (one of many) Zeresh.

There are different punishments for different offenses whereby there are TWO witnesses...

Your Haman/Baker opinion is bracketed by two clear references to the Talmud. Maybe this placement was a mistake, but I'm asking for you to clarify it and provide references if possible.

la70119 · 04-19-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

In English, "in" is the same as within or inside, a location. Unfortunately nowadays the use of correct English is deteriorating. The word "into" is directional. The Hebrew word "al" means on or above or upon.

As if I didn't know that. And "into" is not only directional, it also implies entrance: like "He went into Harvard Square." But I Sa 31:10 uses "be-" which is NOT restricted to "in" or "into." It can mean that, but in this case I do NOT believe it meant either. But you are ON RECORD in this thread as stating Saul and his sone were hanged or placed IN or INTO the town wall. Sheesh.

ph2ter · 04-20-2012, 04:59 AM

The inspiration for crucifixion of Jesus is surely Psalm 22 with its disputed sentence:
"For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They /pierced / bind / my hands and my feet."

A parallel to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is usually found in Inanna's descent to the nether world when her corpse was hanged on the hook, but Psalm 22 has closer connections with the Sumerian myth of Dumuzid. From The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature in the texts written on clay tablets we can read:
Dumuzid and Ĝeštin-ana (c.1.4.1.1)
"They released holy Inana, they …… her. Inana handed over Dumuzid to them in exchange for herself." As for the lad, we will put his feet in foot stocks. As for the lad, we will put his hands in hand stocks: we will put his neck in neck stocks." Copper pins, nails and pokers were raised to his face. They sharpened their large copper axes. As for the lad, they stood him up, they sat him down." Let us remove his …… garment, let us make him stand ……." As for the lad, they bound his arms, they did evil ……. They covered his face with his own garment. "
also
"65-73. The small demons said to the big demons: "Come on, let's go to the holy sheepfold!" There at the holy sheepfold they caught Dumuzid. They went hither and thither until they caught him. They searched for him until he was seen. The axe was wielded against the lad who had no family. They sharpened their daggers, they smashed his hut. "

1.4.3 Dumuzid's dream
That the churns were lying on their sides, no milk was being poured, the drinking cups were lying on their sides, that Dumuzid was dead, and the sheepfold haunted, means your hands will be bound in handcuffs, your arms will be bound in fetters.

156-164. The men surrounded him and drained the standing waters. They twisted a cord for him, they knotted a net for him. They wove a reed hawser for him, they cut sticks for him. The one in front of him threw missiles at him, the one behind him …… one cubit. His hands were bound in handcuffs, his arms were bound in fetters. The lad raised his hands heavenward to Utu

The demons which caught Dumuzid are dogs and evildoers in the Jewish version. They bound his hands and feet. They approached to him with sharp daggers, large copper axes, pins and nails. We can only imagine what they wanted to do with such arsenal of weapons to Dumuzid.
Crucifixion is very, very close to that.

semiopen · 04-20-2012, 07:19 AM

Just a note on Purim.

Haman was pissed at Mordecai because Mordecai didn't bow when Haman passed.

There is a famous question - why didn't Mordecai bow.

Christian responses to this seem clueless (what else is new?)

Mordechai’s Chumra

Goes through the Talmudic opinions -

Quote:

2. Tosafos’ second resolution is rejection of the Talmudic explanation of Mordechai’s refusal to bow in exchange for the Midrashic explanation. According to the Sages of the midrash (Esther Rabbah 7:5), Haman wore idols around his neck so that when people bowed to him, they also bowed to the idols. Tosafos are joined by the great literalist commentator Ibn Ezra in explaining Mordechai’s actions in this way. [Later commentators explain that, out of fear, one may bow to something that no one considers a god. That is why Mordechai would have been allowed to bow to Haman, even if he had declared himself a deity. However, one may not, even out of fear, bow to idols that others worship.]

While researching Haman's "hanging" yesterday I noticed some articles mentioning that the idols might have been painted on his shirt. For example, like a football sweatshirt with a picture of the team's mascot.

Duvduv · 04-20-2012, 08:09 AM

The Midrash Esther has more information about that as well. It explains that years before Haman and Mordechai were in a military operation on behalf of the Persian government and Haman the Amalekite agreed to become Mordechai's personal slave when Haman was on the point of death.
In any case, the Book of Esther teaches that those who refuse to bow and prostrate themselves to idolatry are usually few and far between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Just a note on Purim.

Haman was pissed at Mordecai because Mordecai didn't bow when Haman passed.

There is a famous question - why didn't Mordecai bow.

Christian responses to this seem clueless (what else is new?)

Mordechai’s Chumra

Goes through the Talmudic opinions -

Quote:

2. Tosafos’ second resolution is rejection of the Talmudic explanation of Mordechai’s refusal to bow in exchange for the Midrashic explanation. According to the Sages of the midrash (Esther Rabbah 7:5), Haman wore idols around his neck so that when people bowed to him, they also bowed to the idols. Tosafos are joined by the great literalist commentator Ibn Ezra in explaining Mordechai’s actions in this way. [Later commentators explain that, out of fear, one may bow to something that no one considers a god. That is why Mordechai would have been allowed to bow to Haman, even if he had declared himself a deity. However, one may not, even out of fear, bow to idols that others worship.]

While researching Haman's "hanging" yesterday I noticed some articles mentioning that the idols might have been painted on his shirt. For example, like a football sweatshirt with a picture of the team's mascot.

semiopen · 04-20-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

In any case, the Book of Esther teaches that those who refuse to bow and prostrate themselves to idolatry are usually few and far between.

Did you mean Jew and far between?

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04-20-2012, 04:59 AM	#117
ph2ter Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 219	The inspiration for crucifixion of Jesus is surely Psalm 22 with its disputed sentence: "For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They /pierced / bind / my hands and my feet." A parallel to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is usually found in Inanna's descent to the nether world when her corpse was hanged on the hook, but Psalm 22 has closer connections with the Sumerian myth of Dumuzid. From The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature in the texts written on clay tablets we can read: Dumuzid and Ĝeštin-ana (c.1.4.1.1) "They released holy Inana, they …… her. Inana handed over Dumuzid to them in exchange for herself." As for the lad, we will put his feet in foot stocks. As for the lad, we will put his hands in hand stocks: we will put his neck in neck stocks." Copper pins, nails and pokers were raised to his face. They sharpened their large copper axes. As for the lad, they stood him up, they sat him down." Let us remove his …… garment, let us make him stand ……." As for the lad, they bound his arms, they did evil ……. They covered his face with his own garment. " also "65-73. The small demons said to the big demons: "Come on, let's go to the holy sheepfold!" There at the holy sheepfold they caught Dumuzid. They went hither and thither until they caught him. They searched for him until he was seen. The axe was wielded against the lad who had no family. They sharpened their daggers, they smashed his hut. " 1.4.3 Dumuzid's dream That the churns were lying on their sides, no milk was being poured, the drinking cups were lying on their sides, that Dumuzid was dead, and the sheepfold haunted, means your hands will be bound in handcuffs, your arms will be bound in fetters. 156-164. The men surrounded him and drained the standing waters. They twisted a cord for him, they knotted a net for him. They wove a reed hawser for him, they cut sticks for him. The one in front of him threw missiles at him, the one behind him …… one cubit. His hands were bound in handcuffs, his arms were bound in fetters. The lad raised his hands heavenward to Utu The demons which caught Dumuzid are dogs and evildoers in the Jewish version. They bound his hands and feet. They approached to him with sharp daggers, large copper axes, pins and nails. We can only imagine what they wanted to do with such arsenal of weapons to Dumuzid. Crucifixion is very, very close to that.

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