Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EmmaZunz · 04-08-2012, 03:47 AM

What do you think was the significance of Jesus/Christ being described as hanged/crucified/killed/suffering on a tree?

Did it just mean the cross? Or was there originally a hanging-on-the-tree story that was replaced with the cross? What do you think?

Personally I am tempted to think it was just a poetical way of describing the cross, maybe linked to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

Here are some examples of Jesus on the tree from early Xian texts:

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”" (Gal. 3:13 - referencing Deut. 21:23)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." (1 Peter 2:24; underlined text also in Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians)

"But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree...”" (Acts 5:29-30)

"through him the going forth of the Beloved from the seventh heaven had been made known, and His transformation and His descent and the likeness into which He should be transformed (that is) the likeness of man, and the persecution wherewith he should be persecuted, and the torturers wherewith the children of Israel should torture Him, and the coming of His twelve disciples, and the teaching, and that He should before the sabbath be crucified upon the tree, and should be crucified together with wicked men, and that He should be buried in the sepulchre" (Ascension of Isaiah 3:13 - definite interpolation 3:13-4:22)

"And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and he/they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is." (Ibid. 9:14 - probably original, not interpolation)

"In Jerusalem indeed I saw Him being crucified on a tree" (Ibid. 11:20 - most probably interpolation)

"He himself willed thus to suffer, for it was necessary that He should suffer on the tree." (Epistle of Barnabas chap. V)

"men can be saved in no other way from the old wound of the serpent than by believing in Him who, in the likeness of sinful flesh, is lifted up from the earth upon the tree of martyrdom, and draws all things to Himself, and vivifies the dead." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:II)

"For it was all the more shameful if he, who brought on himself the Creator's curse by hanging on a tree, only pretended the assumption of a bodily substance." (Tertullian, Five Books Against Marcion I:XI)

Meatros · 04-08-2012, 06:29 AM

Why is being hanged on a tree shameful to the ancient Jews?

la70119 · 04-08-2012, 10:55 AM

After slogging through David W Chapman's Book, Ancient Jewish and Christian Perspectives, etc (or via: amazon.co.uk)., I came to the conclusion that it was because being hanged upon a tree put the law-transgressor under the curse of God, or the suspension of the man himself was a reproach to God because he was made in God's image. And of course, Jews sometimes saw fellow Jews being crucified by the government (Rome) as an unalloyed tragedy.

Sheshbazzar · 04-08-2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatros

Why is being hanged on a tree shameful to the ancient Jews?

It was a means of enacting the death penalty upon the very worst of criminals and social offenders, an expression of societies extreme contempt for that individual.
The attached curse signified that YHWH approved and sanctioned the penalty, and thus placed the offender outside of any expectation of either human or divine mercy.
Kind of signified a means of death worthy only for those displaying the ultimate pits of human depravity,
"a crime DESERVING of death" and hence the most shameful means of death to be found within ancient Israeli society.
Being hung on a tree signified a permanent stain of shame upon one's character.
The person so executed was deemed to be a social pariah whose very name and memory should be forgotten.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORAH

22. "If a man has committed a crime deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

23. his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by Elohim. You shall not defile your land that the YHWH your Elohi is giving you for an inheritance. (Deut 21:22-23)

la70119 · 04-08-2012, 04:12 PM

Shesh,

How far back does the name 'Yeshu' stand for an acronym that translates as: "let his name and memory be blotted out?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by b. Sanh. 43a

On the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The person so executed was deemed to be a social pariah whose very name and memory should be forgotten.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORAH

22. "If a man has committed a crime deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

23. his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by Elohim. You shall not defile your land that the YHWH your Elohi is giving you for an inheritance. (Deut 21:22-23)

Guest46854 · 04-08-2012, 04:19 PM

Because it's thought to be too disrespectful to say ''Christ onna Stick''

;<D

stephan huller · 04-08-2012, 04:37 PM

The Pentateuch forbade that one who had suffered a criminal's death be allowed to remain hanging on a tree overnight (Deut 21:22–23). The body was to be buried the same day. The same idea is in Josephus -that the Jews in New Testament times removed those who had been crucified and buried them "before the going down of the sun." This was even more essential on a Friday, when the Sabbath was about to begin.

Also consider however the reference in the Qumran literature lIQTemple 64:6-12 reads: If a man informs against his people, and delivers his people up to a foreign nation, and does harm to his people, you shall hang (Heb = talah) him on the tree, and he shall die. This fits with the Marcionite interpretation of the gospel. Note the chronology:

Quote:

When brought into the council he is asked whether he is himself the Christ. With reference to what Christ could the Jews have asked this question, except their own? Why then did he not, even then, tell them of that other? Because, you answer, he had to be able to suffer. By which you mean, so that he, supremely good, might plunge into crime those who were still ignorant. 'But even if he had told them, he would still have suffered: for he said, If I tell you, ye will not believe: and by refusing to believe, they would have continued to demand his death.' But surely he would have been more likely to suffer if he had declared himself <the Christ> of that other god, and consequently an opponent of the Creator. And so it was not with the intention of suffering that he forbore even then to explain that he was different: but because they desired to extort a confession from his own mouth, and yet even if he confessed were not going to believe, though they ought to have known who he was from his works which were in fulfilment of the scriptures, it was his right, as one to whom unchallenged recognition was due, to hide himself from them. And for all that he still gives them a chance, when he says, Hereafter shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God. From Daniel's prophecy he put himself before them as the Son of man,a and from David's psalm as sitting at the right hand of God.b And so from that saying of his, and its bringing together of <two texts of> scripture, they were fully enlightened as to whom he wished them to take him to be, and asked him, Art thou then the Son of God? Of what god, if not the only God they knew about? Of what god, if not him who they remembered had said in the psalm to his son, Sit thou on my right hand? 'But he answers, Ye say it, as though it were, I do not.' No, but he affirmed that he was that which they had said when they asked him that second time. Yet how can you prove that they were asking a question, and not themselves making the statement when they said Thou art then the Son of God? In that case, as he had indirectly proved by the scriptures that they must understand he was the Son of God, and they perceived this—Thou art then the Son of God, which thou art unwilling to declare openly—he likewise answers in the affirmative, Ye say it: and so clearly was this his meaning, that they continued in the impression which his statement indicated.

So to repeat:

Quote:

When brought into the council he is asked whether he is himself the Christ
he said, If I tell you, ye will not believe
he says, Hereafter shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God.
[they] asked him, Art thou then the Son of God?
he answers, Ye say it

Luke reads:

Quote:

At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and the teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. “If you are the Messiah,” they said, “tell us.” Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.” They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You say that I am.”

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-08-2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meatros

Why is being hanged on a tree shameful to the ancient Jews?

Even beyond the implication that the person was a criminal, the body was believed to be corrupted simply by virtue of having been exposed. They believed in a literal connection of the physical and the spiritual, and physical corruption was the same thing as spiritual corruption to them. They had a very superstitious view of physically "unclean" things.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-08-2012, 05:38 PM

The reason that the "hanged on a tree" reference is made by Paul and others is because Hebrew Scripture has no reference to crucifixion, so the "hung on a tree" thing is as close as they could find in the Old Testament to an image of crucifixion.

"Hanged on a tree" was also, from what I've read, (damn it, where did I just read this. I have way too many books about this shit, I can't remember what I read where any more), a sort of shorthand way to refer to executed criminals in general.

stephan huller · 04-08-2012, 05:55 PM

Here is the relevant passage in Deuteronomy 21. All things Jewish come back to the Pentateuch:

Quote:

And if there be sin in any one, [and] the judgment of death [be upon him], and he be put to death, and ye hang him on a tree: his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but ye shall by all means bury it in that day; for every one that is hanged on a tree is cursed of God; and ye shall by no means defile the land which the Lord thy God gives thee for an inheritance. [LXX]

04-08-2012, 03:47 AM	#1
EmmaZunz Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: UK Posts: 98	Christ hanged on a tree What do you think was the significance of Jesus/Christ being described as hanged/crucified/killed/suffering on a tree? Did it just mean the cross? Or was there originally a hanging-on-the-tree story that was replaced with the cross? What do you think? Personally I am tempted to think it was just a poetical way of describing the cross, maybe linked to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. Here are some examples of Jesus on the tree from early Xian texts: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”" (Gal. 3:13 - referencing Deut. 21:23) "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." (1 Peter 2:24; underlined text also in Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians) "But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree...”" (Acts 5:29-30) "through him the going forth of the Beloved from the seventh heaven had been made known, and His transformation and His descent and the likeness into which He should be transformed (that is) the likeness of man, and the persecution wherewith he should be persecuted, and the torturers wherewith the children of Israel should torture Him, and the coming of His twelve disciples, and the teaching, and that He should before the sabbath be crucified upon the tree, and should be crucified together with wicked men, and that He should be buried in the sepulchre" (Ascension of Isaiah 3:13 - definite interpolation 3:13-4:22) "And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and he/they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is." (Ibid. 9:14 - probably original, not interpolation) "In Jerusalem indeed I saw Him being crucified on a tree" (Ibid. 11:20 - most probably interpolation) "He himself willed thus to suffer, for it was necessary that He should suffer on the tree." (Epistle of Barnabas chap. V) "men can be saved in no other way from the old wound of the serpent than by believing in Him who, in the likeness of sinful flesh, is lifted up from the earth upon the tree of martyrdom, and draws all things to Himself, and vivifies the dead." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:II) "For it was all the more shameful if he, who brought on himself the Creator's curse by hanging on a tree, only pretended the assumption of a bodily substance." (Tertullian, Five Books Against Marcion I:XI)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-08-2012, 06:29 AM	#2
Meatros Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 944	Why is being hanged on a tree shameful to the ancient Jews?

04-08-2012, 10:55 AM	#3
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	After slogging through David W Chapman's Book, Ancient Jewish and Christian Perspectives, etc (or via: amazon.co.uk)., I came to the conclusion that it was because being hanged upon a tree put the law-transgressor under the curse of God, or the suspension of the man himself was a reproach to God because he was made in God's image. And of course, Jews sometimes saw fellow Jews being crucified by the government (Rome) as an unalloyed tragedy.

04-08-2012, 04:19 PM	#6
Guest46854 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: California Posts: 99	Because it's thought to be too disrespectful to say ''Christ onna Stick'' ;<D

04-08-2012, 05:38 PM	#9
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	The reason that the "hanged on a tree" reference is made by Paul and others is because Hebrew Scripture has no reference to crucifixion, so the "hung on a tree" thing is as close as they could find in the Old Testament to an image of crucifixion. "Hanged on a tree" was also, from what I've read, (damn it, where did I just read this. I have way too many books about this shit, I can't remember what I read where any more), a sort of shorthand way to refer to executed criminals in general.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.