Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr_Paine · 06-20-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiquidHAL

hard to reconcile the morality of past civilizations with our own. when tried by this light, most records of years past find themselves wanting in many respects, great and small. even the societal standards of no more than one or two generations past seem horrific when measured by our own ever-evolving sensibilities.

Excellent point! That is precisely why the Bible is irrelevant to advanced civilization. Looking to ancient texts for moral clarity is a dangerous (at worst) and futile (at best) exercise.

Therese · 06-20-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee merrill

Sorry, I meant I would need to have a motive, to be given an attitude that had no vengefulness or ill harm meant in it, which would certainly require the supernatural.

So if god would have to show you a motive, then surely he would have to show a motive in all cases. He has not given a motive in the Moses situation. Certainly not anything that can be qualified as being 'good' by human reasoning. And before you start on 'god's reasoning is different to human reasoning', I would like to clarify that the reasoning I speak of is the human reasoning you would have to use to conclude whether the message was from god or not.

As an aside, I would like to commend your well backed up scriptural argument listed below 'We have instructions!', in you last post. Well done! this seems to be a first for you! I can respect a well researched argument, that actually makes sense - even if it is complete theist drivel...... :Cheeky:

:Cheeky:

lee_merrill · 06-21-2005, 07:14 PM

Hi everyone,

Quote:

John: How can you put any trust in a book whose "inspired" writers thought that the sun moves around the earth?

Well, can you be still? No, you can't! Not with earth whirling through space. But we don't have to make these qualifiers in every instance, to know what is meant, which is all that is needed, even when we know that there really isn't any way to be still.

Quote:

Therese: So if god would have to show you a motive, then surely he would have to show a motive in all cases. He has not given a motive in the Moses situation.

Actually, I meant for God to give a heart attitude, to give me a heart attitude, that had no ill intent in it, I did not mean a requirement for him to demonstrate an abstract motive.

Quote:

I can respect a well researched argument, that actually makes sense - even if it is complete theist drivel...

Glad you think I said some respectable drivel! I shall give myself a gold (though slightly damp) star...

Regards,
Lee

Therese · 06-21-2005, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Glad you think I said some respectable drivel! I shall give myself a gold (though slightly damp) star...

Quote:

Actually, I meant for God to give a heart attitude, to give me a heart attitude, that had no ill intent in it, I did not mean a requirement for him to demonstrate an abstract motive.

First of all, please define heart attitude; secondly, are you now talking about god changing what is in your 'heart', rather than his motive? If that is the case, then you have jumped right out of the god/motive conversation, and right into something entirely irrelevant to what we had been discussing.

badger3k · 06-21-2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Actually, I meant for God to give a heart attitude, to give me a heart attitude, that had no ill intent in it, I did not mean a requirement for him to demonstrate an abstract motive.

I'm probably going to hate myself in the morning.

Heart attitude?

What do you mean by this cutsie phrase?

Bob K · 06-21-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Quote:

Bob: How would you (1) verify/prove the existence of gods and then (2) verify/prove the speeches of the gods?

We have instructions!

Deuteronomy 18:21 - 19:1 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

So any predictions that are part of a message have to be 100% true.

Jeremiah 23:28-29 Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the Lord. "Is not my word like fire," declares the Lord, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

So the quality of the message will be similar to messages in Scripture, not the style, though, but the (this is difficult to describe) the effect it has as we hear it, as C.S. Lewis said of various sayings attributed to Jesus, "It's a good saying, but not his," that aspect must line up, it will be like fire, like a hammer.

Here is a rather extended passage on just this very area:

1 John 4:1-6 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

You may pick out the parts to apply here! And one more:

Matthew 7:15-20 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

And this can be applied to voices people hear, too, what deeds tend to be associated with these voices, do these beings, or prophets, show good fruit?

And finally, people are encouraged to ask for confirmation, in various instances, supernatural confirmation, if need be:

Exodus 4:1-5 Moses answered, "What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The Lord did not appear to you'?" Then the Lord said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The Lord said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the Lord said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. "This," said the Lord, "is so that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their fathers-- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob-- has appeared to you."

Have you ever observed or otherwise heard of a contemporary person prove he speaks a message from your god by causing a staff to turn into a snake?

You did not respond to my demand that you prove gods exist by (A) physical evidence, people/objects/evens comprised of matter/energy, (B) eyewitness reports from credible eyewitnesses corroborated by credible corroborators of physical evidence, or (C) logical arguments whose premises are verifiable/falsifiable/verified by physical evidence.

You did not provide people/objects/events comprised of matter/energy who/which prove gods exist. You did not provide the gods, themselves; nor did you provide us with stunts performed by the gods to prove they have more knowledge and capabilities for using that knowledge than humans and therefore are gods.

You did not provide us with credible eyewitness reports. You cited the Bible, which is so loaded with nonsense, contradictions, inaccuracies, etc., that it cannot be accepted as a credible holy book, and, therefore, is more aptly named the Bable.

Inre verifying the inspiration of speeches by the gods, you tried to provide us with a logical argument based upon a premise that if prophecies come true then that is proof that the prophet spoke the words of the gods without specifying how we would ever note if or not a prophecy was truly remarkable/unique. Any reasonably intelligent person can prophesize earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, pestilences, and other natural disasters, so prophecizing natural disasters is not unique; and guessing what humans who run nations might do may not be as predictable as natural disasters, but, nevertheless, predicting that in the future a tyrant will arise and, surprise, be a tyrant, and injure innocent individuals, do bad things to good people, is not necessarily unique, etc., etc., etc.

And then we would have the fun of looking up any and all prophets/prophecies you offer and determine (A) if or not the prophecies actually happened, if physical evidence exists which would confirm the occurrence of the events prophecized, (B) if the prophecies were made before the events, (C) if the prophets subsequently ever made any prophecies which did not happen, and (D) if prophets who were not Jws/Xns made accurate prophecies, which would then cause us to wonder if or not your premise that Jwsh/Xn prophets whose prophecies come true are any better at spreading the words of the gods than non-Jwsh/non-Xn prophets.

Similarly, if successful exorcisms have been conducted by non-Jws/non-Xns, then you cannot claim that only Jws/Xns can help people by conducting exorcisms, and you therefore cannot claim that Jdsm/Xnity are somehow interlocked in a one-and-only true religion.

Your claims that the Bable provides instructions inre proof of the existence of gods and verification that speeches of men were inspired by gods are therefore rejected.

Enda80 · 06-21-2005, 09:10 PM

You know, this whole Moses killing babies thing is why I do not care for the most part about what happens to theistic Judaists. Worship a cosmic gangster, do feel surprised when it turns against you.

John A. Broussard · 06-22-2005, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lee_merrill

Well, can you be still? No, you can't! Not with earth whirling through space. But we don't have to make these qualifiers in every instance, to know what is meant, which is all that is needed, even when we know that there really isn't any way to be still.

Actually, I meant for God to give a heart attitude, to give me a heart attitude, that had no ill intent in it, I did not mean a requirement for him to demonstrate an abstract motive.

Heart attitude!! That's small potatoes compared to lee's first paragraph, above.

Can ANYONE explain to me what lee is talking about there?

Therese · 06-22-2005, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Heart attitude!! That's small potatoes compared to lee's first paragraph, above.

Can ANYONE explain to me what lee is talking about there?

Yeah you're quite right John. I just didn't want to touch it with a ten foot barge poll, because it's soooooo bizarre, it hurts my head.

What does it mean? I wouldn't have a clue. But I'm sure it would be really great to think about when on acid.....

John A. Broussard · 06-22-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therese

Yeah you're quite right John. I just didn't want to touch it with a ten foot barge poll, because it's soooooo bizarre, it hurts my head.

What does it mean? I wouldn't have a clue. But I'm sure it would be really great to think about when on acid.....

At the very least you could have asked it for one or two prohecies.

I hate to say this, and with all due respect, but you passed up a great opportunity.

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06-21-2005, 09:10 PM	#337
Enda80 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston Posts: 190	You know, this whole Moses killing babies thing is why I do not care for the most part about what happens to theistic Judaists. Worship a cosmic gangster, do feel surprised when it turns against you.

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