Sheshonq

Except you have provided no evidence of a temple and walls on the mainland.

The temple was on the island, like the walls were.

Because they are in the field - the mainland.

So? Tyre had several colonies.

It is "daughter" because it is inferior in status and prestige -- and because there were colonies involved -- not because it is older or younger.

makerowner

Rome is only mentioned once, in passing. The empire that breaks up in ch. 8 is Alexander's. The main reason Daniel is dated to 167-164 BC is because all the 'predictions' are accurate up to that time period, then inaccurate after it. The description of Antiochus's death for example, is wrong; the world didn't end 3 1/2 years after the desecration of the temple; the sanctuary was rededicated; the Maccabean revolt was largely successful; none of the world empires was destroyed by God, etc. etc.
Daniel is never stated to be a linguist, and the writing he interprets on the wall is in Aramaic, so this argument is useless.
The style of the Hebrew used by Daniel is very late and quite different from that of actual Exilic works like Ezekiel.
There isn't even a prophecy to disprove, so no, I didn't fail.

spin

Success: population growth, agricultural necessities, control and management of raw materials -- Tyre supplied the Mediterranean with timber (the cedars of Lebanon). The reality is clarified when the mainland population seeks refuge back on the island in time of threat. The mainland extension has no reason to exist other than for the island's needs. You see the relationship between the island and the daughters in the field in Ezekiel. They are daughters of Tyre -- on the mainland, while Tyre is "in the midst of the sea". Even Josephus (AJ 8.2.7) preserves the tradition that Tyre was an island at the time of Hiram. In Contra Apion 1.17, Josephus records a report of Hiram joining two islands together: he "raised banks at the eastern parts of the city, and enlarged it; he also joined the temple of Jupiter Olympius, which stood before in an island by itself, to the city, by raising a causeway between them".

1 Kgs 9:27 indicates that Tyre was a naval power at the time of Solomon. Where were Tyre's ports?

The only thing that doesn't indicate that the island was Tyre is some misconceived modern interpretation that you adhere to, not through evidence, but apparently through desire.


spin

Jack the Bodiless

You are now employing the apologetic technique known as "making stuff up". Historians agree that Tyre was on the island, and that Nebby's unsuccessful siege was directed against the island.
Has it occurred to YOU that the mainland settlement you call "Old Tyre" would have been much larger than just the Hippodrome (it was, after all, the "overflow" from Tyre proper: everything that wouldn't fit on the island), and that plenty of other land on the mainland has ben built upon?

And why are you still ignoring the fact that archaeologists say that the Phoenecian ruins are mostly "beneath the present town"? In addition to all the other stuff you're wrong about, of course.

The prophecy failed.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to sugarhitman: Why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? Wouldn't that have been helpful?

sugarhitman

"The city of Tyre consisted of a mainland metropolis and a small island that stood about half a mile offshore......According to some accounts, Nebuchadnezzar conquered Tyre by breaching the city's aqueduct. The Tyrians abandoned the mainland and fortified themselves on the island of Tyre. The mainland was thrown down and left in ruins. The island continued to be a mighty power in the Mediterranean until many years later."---www.globalsecurity.com "The Phonecian city of Tyre falls to Babylon's Nebuchadnezzar after a 13 year seige."---www.enotes.com "Nebuchadnezzar , king of Babylon laid seige to the walled city for 13 years. Tyre stood firm, but it is propbable that at this time the residents of the mainland city abandoned it for the safety of the island."---www.destinationlebanon.com. "In the 10th century B.C. King Hiram of Tyre constructed two ports and a temple on the mainland sector of the city."---www.world66.com. "The city was built on the mainland opposite the island to which the inhabitants retreated whenever their city was beseiged."---www.diggingsonline.com "Babylon begins a 13 year seige of the mainland of the Phonecian city of Tyre." www.stephenarmstrong.com.

Ezekiel predeicted that Nebuchadnezzar would do these things to Tyre;

1. Destroy those towns villages outside the walls of Old Tyre

2. Break down the towers with his axes. Note: Critics has confused Nebuchadnezzars breaking down towers with destruction of walls (which is done by THEY i.e. someone other than Babylon) Towers are built into the defensive wall extending outwards from the wall to make it easy to fire upon attackers trying to breach the wall. Indeed the walls of Tyre would still be standing when Nebu enters the city: "Your walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into your gates, AS MEN ENTER INTO A CITY WHERE THERE IS MADE A BREACH." Nebu breaches the wall not destroy it. If Nebu is THEY also then his breaching of the wall vs their complete destruction of the wall is another gross contradiction. Breaching and destroying a wall are two different things. Yet another proof that Nebu is not THEY.

3. Entering the main land city killing citizens, and garrisons. Note: There is no mention of Nebu plundering or taking spoil.


These are the deeds that would be done by THEY:

1. They would take Tyres wealth

2. They would destroy the walls and pleasent houses

3. They would LAY Tyres stones and timber and even the dust in the water.


All these things were done by the "many nations to come against you". In particular Alexander who demolished what was left of mainland Tyre making it a bare rock as it remains to this day when building his causeway.

These are the things God will do to Old Tyre

1. He would make the mainland city like the top of a rock (nothing built on it) never to be built again. Note: The site where old Tyre was, is now UNESCO protected ensuring that no building will ever take place there. Critics would say how do you know. Because History has it that Alex used rubble from Old Tyre to build his mole. The location of the ruins was on the old coastline, the same spot where that bare spot which encloses the Hippodrome is located....on the former coastline.

2. He would make it a place to spread nets UPON. And its main economic activity fishing.

These are the things God will do to New Tyre


1.He would make it competely desolate and UNINHABITABLE

2. He would bring the deep over it that is bury it deep beneath the sea.

Note: Critics are saying that all these things was supposed to happen when Babylon came against Tyre. If all this was to happen at the same time then God is indeed indecisive. In one point he says Tyre will be a place to spread nets UPON which means people will still be at this spot. And then He says he will make it desolate and uninhabitable by burying it under the sea with no people there to spread nets on it (how can you since it is under the sea also desolate means no people there period). Is God indecisive? Is the prophecy of Ezekiel this contradictory? No. These are clear and distinctive judgements against both Old Tyre and New Tyre. The mainland judgements are fulfilled....the island is on borrowed time.

Critics has Nebu laying seige to island Tyre. Ezekeil has him actually attacking the mainland city and defeating it. Because how can an island fortress walls such as Tyre be broken with hand axes when it could not even be approached by a large land army with heavy seige engines and no causeway. Maybe Nebu had his men lean over the sides of the ships to strike the walls with axes as there were no ships at that time mounted with battering rams. So why would Ezekiel have an land based army attacking an island fortress? The description of Nebu's army by Ezekiel the only one of the armies of the many nations described in detail does not mention ships. Ships would have been the foremost important war item in a siege against island Tyre but yet Ezekiel says nothing about ships but lists land based weapons instead. Was he this ignorant concerning stratigies of warefare? Very unlikely. Ezekiel predicts Babylon's destruction of mainland Tyre which history says happened. While critics says Babylon attacked island Tyre which there is no history of this being done. It is the critics who are going about their weaseling and fake history manufactoring to make the prophecy of Ezekiel false. It will not be successful...truth in the end all ways win.

sugarhitman

To sheshong: You said daughters are a reference to cities of lower importance or prestige rather then age? Then why is Tyre who was more rich and powerful called a daughter of Sidon (Zidon) rather then a mother of Sidon? Daughters of cities are always thus called in the bible to mean a city founded by the mother city and not because of lack of importance or significance. Old Tyre is thus named because the inhabitants of this mother city founded New Tyre. Old Tyre is the mother city. And this city founded New Tyre as well as the towns villages in the field.

sugarhitman

You said that the prophecy of Daniel was written in around 200 B.C. and that the division of Rome was actually a division of Greece in ch.8. Well take a look at this. In Ch.2 Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of a statue of a man made of 4 different metals, the head of gold, the chest and arms of silver, stomach and thighs of brass, and finally legs of iron with feet and toes partly of iron and clay.

Daniel tells Nebu that his kingdom is the head of gold. 1. head of gold (Babylon)
another kingdom of silver would arise after Babylon. In ch.5 The writing on the wall the second kingdom is named. 2. chest and two arms of silver (Medo-Persia)
A third kingdom of brass arise after the second. In ch.8 The third is given. 3. Greece.

A fourth kingdom strong as iron would arise. Note: This kingdom would not be defeated by another people but instead would divide into separate powers. "And the 4th kingdom shall be strong as iron: Forasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and SUBDUE ALL THINGS (nations and kingdoms)....And where you saw the feet and toes, part of potter's clay and part of iron, THE KINGDOM SHALL BE DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of iron.

The fourth is Rome and true to Daniel's prediction it was not overtaken by another people, but divided from internal conflicts its power shared by the Germanic tribes. This happened in 476 A.D. long after Daniel was dead. And to this day no other nation has risen over the Roman-European powers the longest rule of any nation in the history of civilization. But Daniel says it will be destroyed but not by man: "And in the days (or time which has been since 476 A.D.) these kings (divided Roman powers) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in peices the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold---the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this...... the dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

Hmmmm I wonder who is the stone and its coming. In ch.7 Daneil says: I was watching in the night visions, and behold One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all nations should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed.....Note: This coming of Jesus takes place during the times of the European powers....the time we are in.

spin

This should be humiliating for you when the best you can do is repeat sad websites of people without the sources and expertise to deal with the subject. You won't find much source material about Tyre on the web, just repeats of people repeating other people. You need to look at a few books and scholarly journals.

You have not responded to the evidence regarding Tyre as an island. You have refused to note that all the major Phoenician cities were on islands. And you plead without any evidence whatsoever that Tyre is actually the mainland settlement of Ushu. Of course Seti I of Egypt listed both Tyre and Ushu

There is no mainland city of Tyre. This is an invention. Tyre is an island, as Ezekiel clearly indicated when it located Tyre in the midst of the sea (Ez 26:5). Ezekiel says that Nebuchadnezzar would scrape the soil from the Tyre and leave the city a bare rock (in the midst of the sea). And its daughters on the land will be put to the sword (26:6). Note once again the separation, Tyre and daughters on the land. You are trying to reverse what Ezekiel says here, the daughters on the island and Tyre on the mainland. Why? Because you can't read what Ezekiel has said.
"For thus says ADNY YHWH, I will bring against Tyre the north king Nebuchadrezzar..." Notice that "[f]or thus" slipped in there? It's in the text [KY KH]. It means that it is supplying god's words to explain what is mentioned immediately before. Grammar matters. You should take notice of what your text actually says.

By decontextualizing the comment you distort its meaning. You have deliberately separated it from the fact that it was to be done by Nebuchadrezzar. (And do note the spelling. Ezekiel gets this correct.)

The island is Tyre. Sidon colonized Tyre because of its defensible location, ie the island. You will not check it up by consulting scholarly books on the subject. You prefer to turn to know-nothing websites who say things you want to hear.

This is your problem. You haven't dealt with the fact that it is an island and you want to change the topic.

Maybe that's the way the writer of Ezekiel knew how to describe sieges.

Why do you refuse to go to reputable sources about Tyre? Go even to the Encyclopaedia Britannica or any reputable equivalent -- shudder to think that I'm recommending this -- and see for yourself. Don't you think it's odd that only people who you trust on religious websites say that Tyre wasn't the island? No, you don't think so.

If you actually read the text, there is no separation between Nebuchadrezzar, king of kings and many nations. Being king of kings he was many nations.

Since when was Babylon a naval power?? It might get people to build ships, but when was it a naval power, hmm?

You obviously wouldn't know. You haven't looked at the ancient art of siegecraft. It wasn't very advanced in Babylonian times. You had to wait for Rome for serious siege warfare.

Ezekiel says Tyre, not your false creation of "mainland Tyre". Just read 26:17 which says of Tyre, "How you are destroyed... the renowned city which was strong in the sea..." Or 27:25b, "So you were filled and heavily laden in the midst of the sea." Or 27:27b, "all the company that is within you will sink into the heart of the sea." Or 27:32b "Who was ever like Tyre destroyed in the midst of the sea?" And of course the references from Josephus I mentioned previously that you ignored. All evidence points to Tyre being an island. Religious websites disagree.

When Tyre was the island, what are you trying to say? Tyre was besieged. Have you any thoughts as to why Nebuchadrezzar lay siege to Tyre for so many years without any success, if it weren't the island? Why did Nebuchadrezzar eventually settle with Tyre? Oh, right, you don't know anything about the history of Tyre and what happened with Nebuchadrezzar.

I love this "fake history manufacturing", when you won't even look at any history. You refuse to deal with the fact that Tyre is and always has been an island. You won't even read Ezekiel on the fact that Tyre is an island. You can't come to grips with why Nebuchadrezzar layed siege to Tyre for 13 years without conquering it. And you talk about weaseling. Hah. You're an expert.


spin

spin

Because Sidon founded Tyre. Got any better questions?

Hey, you can't be wrong always.

Utter rubbish. There is nothing to make you call anything "Old Tyre" as against "New Tyre" you are only fabricating falsity.


spin