maryhelena

In an earlier chart I moved an ur-Luke to prior to gMatthew.

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....03#post7038703

I’ve now moved an ur-Luke a step further - as in the chart below. Yes, obviously, lots of questions can be raised. So, please feel free to present them.....;-)

The chart is based upon storyline development.

Source	Birth Narrative	Crucifixion	Comment 1	Comment 2	Comment 3
Slavonic Josephus	Prior to the 15th year of Herod the Great. Around 25 b.c. or 22 b.c. if dating Herod from siege of Jerusalem in 37 b.c.	Pilate			Wonder-doer and JtB have no connection.
Eusebius Church History: Acts of Pilate		Pilate: 7th year of Tiberius is the 'Passion' = 19 or 21 c.e. (from coregency or sole rule)	Wonder-doer figure would be between 41/44 years old depending upon dating used for start of rule of Herod the Great.	Josephus dating for Pilate ambigious. 19 - 36 c.e.
gJohn		Pilate	Wonder-doer/JC not yet 50 years old: from a birth narrative either 25 or 22 b.c. takes one to either 25 c.e., or 28 c.e., for a crucifixion story.	"not yet 50 years' = 7 X 7 - 49 years. A prophetic application.	Some disciples from Bethsaida. No mention JC being baptized by JtB, no under the water.
ur-Luke 1		Pilate: Around the 15th year of Tiberius = from 26/27 to 29/30 c.e. Counting from both co-regency and sole rule. (12 or 14 c.e.)	New crucifixion date possible; moved away from the 7th year of Tiberius.	This is the copy of Luke that Marcion has. No mention of Herodias and Philip and Herod (Antipas) re JtB.	Marcion's gospel has no baptism of JC by JtB.
ur-Matthew	No specific date for nativity under Herod the Great.	Pilate	Herod (Antipas) and the Herodias and JtB story. Herodias previously married to Philip.	Slavonic Josephus has Herodias marrying 'Herod' after death of Philip. Josephus gives Philip's death as 20th year of Tiberius. From co-rule or from sole rule = 30 - 33 c.e.	Crucifixion of JC is after death of Philip. Casearea Philippi mentioned as place where JC questioned re messiahship. JC baptized by JtB in the Jordan.
ur-Luke 2	15th year of Tiberius co-regency rule, 26/27 c.e., back 30 years to around a 4 b.c. birth narrative.	Pilate.	JC about 30 years at start of ministy.	This 'about 30 years' opens the way for gMatthew birth narrative; late in rule of Herod the Great.	JC baptized by JtB- mention of coming out of the water.
gMatthew	Jesus a young child under Archelaus = 4 b.c. - 6 c.e.	Pilate	Herod (Antipas) and the Herodias and JtB story. Herodias previously married to Philip.	Slavonic Josephus has Herodias marrying 'Herod' after death of Philip. Josephus gives Philip's death as 20th year of Tiberius. From co-rule or from sole rule = 30 - 33 c.e.	Crucifixion of JC is after death of Philip. JC baptized by JtB- mention of coming out of the water.
gMark		Pilate.	Herod (Antipas) and the Herodias and JtB story. Herodias previously married to Philip.	Slavonic Josephus has Herodias marrying 'Herod' after death of Philip. Josephus gives Philip's death as 20th year of Tiberius. From co-rule or from sole rule = 30 - 33 c.e.	Crucifixion of JC after death of Philip. Casearea Philippi mentioned as place where JC questioned re messiahship. JC baptized by JtB in the Jordan - mention of coming out of the water
Infancy gospel of James	JC and JtB nativity close together, time of Herod. family connection.		A family link brings JtB to a new birth narrative with JC. Impossible now for the Slavonic Josephus story re JtB and Archelaus.	Two boys born to be kings, John and Jesus
Josephus Antiquities 93/94 c.e.			Herodias not married to Philip. With the new account of Herodias etc.= historical door to the past now closed.	TF placed prior to the expelling of Jews from Rome 19 c.e, allowing for the dating of Pilate to be ambigious	JtB death prior to the war with Aretas in 36 c.e.
gLuke	Census of Quirinius in 6 c.e. JC and JtB are cousins and born within 6 months of each other.	Pilate.	Crucfixion story now 30 years later - around 36 c.e. - the end of the rule of Pilate re Josephus. Herodias is not previously married to Philip.	Nativity story moved away from time of Herod the Great - and the Slavonic Josephus storyline.	Crucifixion of JC and death of JtB are at end of Pilate's rule in 36 c.e. JC baptised by JtB. No mention of water.

tanya

Hi MaryHelena, I studied your chart, a bit, and I remain perplexed. It looks to me as though you have combined two ideas: one derived from actual documents, the other wholly imaginary, without any documentary support.

For example, "ur-Matthew", is presumably a version of Matthew that preceded authorship of the gospel of Matthew. In your chart, Casearea Philippi appears, as though it had been noted in some sort of ancient text, but, so far as I understand, it is not found in any extant version of Matthew, regardless of the age of the ancient fragment.

I question the value of such conjecture. I don't understand enough to make sense of the combination of real data and hypothetical writing. What is your goal in creating such a chart? How does the addition of imaginary writing assist us in better understanding the origins of Christianity? I would have thought it more productive to characterize the distinctions among various Greek versions of the synpoptic gospels, with the aim of elucidating which version of actual documents, came first. If we cannot even know which of three or four competing versions of the same Greek gospel arrived first on the scene, how are we to assess potential contributions of that particular Gospel on subsequent texts by completely different authors? First, we need clarity on which edition of Mark is the genuine article (if any), then, one can discuss the notion that Mark did or did not influence Matthew and/or Luke.

:huh:

maryhelena

Oh, well - thanks for that spelling mistake....Though I'm sure you realized what I was referring to...:huh:


[T2]
Matthew 16:13

[ Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ ] Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
Matthew 16:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

Mark 8:27

[ Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ ] And Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi. And on the way he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?”

Mark 8:26-28 (in Context) Mark 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations[/T2]
Goal? To trace the storyline development of the JC storyboard.

By all means try that approach...Though I would imagine that many a NT scholar has been doing that for some time now...

tanya, that is not my approach - as I have noted in the OP. I'm following a storyline. One story is dated early in the reign of Herod the Great. Another story is dated outside the rule of Herod the Great. My approach is to trace the transition from one story, the earlier dated story, to the later dated story.

The synoptic problem is a long running problem. My opinion is that all relevant stories have to be considered, put on the table as it were, if the synoptic problem is ever going to be addressed adequately.

maryhelena

CORRECTED CHART RE THE SPELLING OF Caesarea Philippi...

In an earlier chart I moved an ur-Luke to prior to gMatthew.

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread....03#post7038703

I’ve now moved an ur-Luke a step further - as in the chart below. Yes, obviously, lots of questions can be raised. So, please feel free to present them.....;-)

The chart is based upon storyline development.

Source	Birth Narrative	Crucifixion	Comment 1	Comment 2	Comment 3
Slavonic Josephus	Prior to the 15th year of Herod the Great. Around 25 b.c. or 22 b.c. if dating Herod from siege of Jerusalem in 37 b.c.	Pilate			Wonder-doer and JtB have no connection.
Eusebius Church History: Acts of Pilate		Pilate: 7th year of Tiberius is the 'Passion' = 19 or 21 c.e. (from coregency or sole rule)	Wonder-doer figure would be between 41/44 years old depending upon dating used for start of rule of Herod the Great.	Josephus dating for Pilate ambigious. 19 - 36 c.e.
gJohn		Pilate	Wonder-doer/JC not yet 50 years old: from a birth narrative either 25 or 22 b.c. takes one to either 25 c.e., or 28 c.e., for a crucifixion story.	"not yet 50 years' = 7 X 7 - 49 years. A prophetic application.	Some disciples from Bethsaida. No mention JC being baptized by JtB, no under the water.
ur-Luke 1		Pilate: Around the 15th year of Tiberius = from 26/27 to 29/30 c.e. Counting from both co-regency and sole rule. (12 or 14 c.e.)	New crucifixion date possible; moved away from the 7th year of Tiberius.	This is the copy of Luke that Marcion has. No mention of Herodias and Philip and Herod (Antipas) re JtB.	Marcion's gospel has no baptism of JC by JtB.
ur-Matthew	No specific date for nativity under Herod the Great.	Pilate	Herod (Antipas) and the Herodias and JtB story. Herodias previously married to Philip.	Slavonic Josephus has Herodias marrying 'Herod' after death of Philip. Josephus gives Philip's death as 20th year of Tiberius. From co-rule or from sole rule = 30 - 33 c.e.	Crucifixion of JC is after death of Philip. Caesarea Philippi mentioned as place where JC questioned re messiahship. JC baptized by JtB in the Jordan.
ur-Luke 2	15th year of Tiberius co-regency rule, 26/27 c.e., back 30 years to around a 4 b.c. birth narrative.	Pilate.	JC about 30 years at start of ministy.	This 'about 30 years' opens the way for gMatthew birth narrative; late in rule of Herod the Great.	JC baptized by JtB- mention of coming out of the water.
gMatthew	Jesus a young child under Archelaus = 4 b.c. - 6 c.e.	Pilate	Herod (Antipas) and the Herodias and JtB story. Herodias previously married to Philip.	Slavonic Josephus has Herodias marrying 'Herod' after death of Philip. Josephus gives Philip's death as 20th year of Tiberius. From co-rule or from sole rule = 30 - 33 c.e.	Crucifixion of JC is after death of Philip. JC baptized by JtB- mention of coming out of the water.
gMark		Pilate.	Herod (Antipas) and the Herodias and JtB story. Herodias previously married to Philip.	Slavonic Josephus has Herodias marrying 'Herod' after death of Philip. Josephus gives Philip's death as 20th year of Tiberius. From co-rule or from sole rule = 30 - 33 c.e.	Crucifixion of JC after death of Philip. Caesarea Philippi mentioned as place where JC questioned re messiahship. JC baptized by JtB in the Jordan - mention of coming out of the water
Infancy gospel of James	JC and JtB nativity close together, time of Herod. family connection.		A family link brings JtB to a new birth narrative with JC. Impossible now for the Slavonic Josephus story re JtB and Archelaus.	Two boys born to be kings, John and Jesus
Josephus Antiquities 93/94 c.e.			Herodias not married to Philip. With the new account of Herodias etc.= historical door to the past now closed.	TF placed prior to the expelling of Jews from Rome 19 c.e, allowing for the dating of Pilate to be ambigious	JtB death prior to the war with Aretas in 36 c.e.
gLuke	Census of Quirinius in 6 c.e. JC and JtB are cousins and born within 6 months of each other.	Pilate.	Crucfixion story now 30 years later - around 36 c.e. - the end of the rule of Pilate re Josephus. Herodias is not previously married to Philip.	Nativity story moved away from time of Herod the Great - and the Slavonic Josephus storyline.	Crucifixion of JC and death of JtB are at end of Pilate's rule in 36 c.e. JC baptised by JtB. No mention of water.

maryhelena

“The Marcionite Gospel and the Synoptic Problem: A New Suggestion”

http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ew-suggestion/

aa5874

Your chart is like giving out random pieces of a jigsaw puzzle without knowing what the end result should look like or if the random pieces can produce any picture.

Duvduv

This entire topic becomes so interesting since there isn't even any proof of a single text authored by Marcion or the alleged Marcionites from the second or any other century. It is discussed within the realm of conjecture alone. Even good old Justin could say nothing about this guy's writing or texts who lived at the same time and in the same city and was conceived of as a big bogeyman.

maryhelena

Indeed! However, we have what we have - albeit probably cut and paste from whatever was available. So? The intriquing thing is the possibility that the version of ur-Luke that Marcion was supposed to have had was not a mutilated copy of gLuke - but a very early version. A version that, without a nativity story connection to Quirinius, would put his version prior to Antiquities and it's links to gLuke and Acts.

Luke and Josephus (2000)

Richard Carrier

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...djosephus.html

Duvduv

You mean a variation on Memoirs of the Apostles, unnamed in an alleged 2nd century Justin?
And the whole epistle transformation argument (which is all it is, despite being turned into a "fact" of history) via Marcion is without evidentiary foundation. Good old Justin doesn't mention anything about it. Of course this also means that at the time (later) that the Apology was written there wasn't yet the set of epistles.