Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-05-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I'm finding that the 'get out of jail free' pass comparison is relative to the concept of 'backsliding'. Notice how people are never saved 'from sin' because they continue to do so. Rather they are saved from the purported negative consequence of sin, which is hell.

Freedom from the law is freedom from sin and the negative consequence of sin is not hell or "cold" would be wrong. Hell is when we are made lukewarm and cannot be set free from the law despite the fact that we have been reborn. Rather-- and perhaps more to the point-- hell is when we have been reborn from below and therefore cannot be set free from the law.

Soul Invictus · 11-05-2003, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
That earns a rarely given "smilie"--:notworthy

--J.D.

Due to the rarity to which it's given, makes it all the more special!

Soul Invictus · 11-05-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Freedom from the law is freedom from sin and the negative consequence of sin is not hell or "cold" would be wrong. Hell is when we are made lukewarm and cannot be set free from the law despite the fact that we have been reborn. Rather-- and perhaps more to the point-- hell is when we have been reborn from below and therefore cannot be set free from the law.

I am not quite sure I follow your reply. Are you stating that hell is a state of mind so to speak, rather than a physical location?

Toto · 11-05-2003, 09:55 PM

For Dr. Jim

Luther on the Epistle of James

Quote:

Epistle of Straw? Luther

"Saint John's gospel and St. Paul's epistles, especially that to the Romans, and St. Peter's first epistle are the true pit and marrow of all the books. They should justly be the first books, and every Christian should be advised to read them first and most, and by daily reading to make them as familiar to himself as his daily bread.

In them you do not find described many works and miracles of Christ; but you do find depicted in a masterly manner how faith in Christ overcomes sin, death, and hell, and gives life, righteousness, and salvation. This is the real nature of the Gospel �

These books show you Christ and teach you all that is necessary and salutary for you to known even though you were never to see or hear any other book or doctrine. Therefore St. James epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to them, for it lacks this evangelical character." (W-DB 6, 10 Plass 988)

. . .

and yet, again, Luther quotes James
His comments on Prayer-do not ever give up on prayer, "Let us, therefore, pray boldly and confidently" supported by James 5:16. (Plass 1097)

"So the question is asked: How can justification take place without the works of the Law, and how can no justification take place by the works of the Law even though James clearly says: 'Faith without works is dead' (2:26) and 'By works a man is justified' (2:24), adducing the examples of Abraham and Rahab? And even Paul says (Gal 5:6): 'Faith (which) worketh by love' and above (Rom 2:13): 'The doers of the Law shall be justified"? Answer: the apostle distinguishes between the Law and faith, between the letter and grace, and so also between their works. He calls those works 'works of the Law' that are done without faith and grace, by the Law, which forces them to be done through fear or through the enticing promise of temporal advantages. But he calls these 'works of faith' which are done in the spirit of liberty, purely out of love to God. And these can be done only by those who are justified by faith. But the works of the Law contribute nothing toward this justification, nay, they greatly hinder it, because they will not let a man realize that he is unjust and in need of justification.

"There when the blessed James and the apostle say that man is justified by works, they are disputing the false conception of those who contended that a faith without works would be sufficient. However, the apostle does not say that faith is without its characteristic works-for then there would be no faith at all since 'activity reveals the nature of a thing' according to philosophers-but that it justifies without the works of the Law. Therefore justification does not require a living faith, which performs its works. (W 56, 248f in Plass 720-721).

I'm not actually sure if that last paragraph makes sense.

DrJim · 11-06-2003, 08:23 AM

Toto:
Thanks, much appreciated!

Jim

CJD · 11-06-2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Luther wrote:
"There when the blessed James and the apostle say that man is justified by works, they are disputing the false conception of those who contended that a faith without works would be sufficient. However, the apostle does not say that faith is without its characteristic works-for then there would be no faith at all since 'activity reveals the nature of a thing' according to philosophers-but that it justifies without the works of the Law. Therefore justification does not require a living faith, which performs its works" (W 56, 248f in Plass 720-721).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not actually sure if that last paragraph makes sense.

When Luther writes "However, the apostle does not say that faith is without its characteristic works . . . but that it justifies without the works of the Law," he is simply saying that the Scriptures (namely, Saints Paul and James) teach We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Remember, Luther saw justification and sanctification as radically separate links in salvation (whereas many other continental Reformers conjoined the two. Catholics do not make this distinction in this sense. Historically, they teach justification is progressive; sanctification is subsumed under justification, etc.).

When he writes ". . . for then there would be no faith at all since 'activity reveals the nature of a thing' according to philosophers . . .," he is affirming the Scholastic or Aristotelian notion that a person is what he or she does. Forrest Gump's mother reaffirmed this in the latter 20th century.

Regards,

CJD

11-06-2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soul Invictus
I am not quite sure I follow your reply. Are you stating that hell is a state of mind so to speak, rather than a physical location?

Yes, that is the what I wrote. It is based on heaven being a state of mind such as the mind of Christ or the mind of God.

Remember here that sin is a human concept needed to redeem the fallen nature of man and so sin by itself can never land us in hell. Quit contrary, actually, because the laws were given to Moses so it would convict man of sin and bring about salvation through the redemption of the inner man wherein we are the image of God.

In this context 'unsaved' sinners are cold, 'saved sinners' are lukewarm, and 'redeemed sinners' [now beyond the conviction of the law] are hot (in case you wonder, these are what Gal. 5:1-4 is all about, eg. freedom in Christ, no yoke of slavery and sin, and if we do seek justification in the law a second time we have fallen from Gods favor and will remain saved-sinner until we die.

Saved sinners should do their time in purgatory where they work out their own salvation [in fear and trembling!] and after this they will rise and enter heaven. Purgatory is to last about 42 months or about 1211 days (it's in the bible someplace).

Brian_iiiii · 11-11-2003, 09:27 AM

==============================================
....and so sin by itself can never land us in hell.
==============================================

True. Sin coupled with non-acceptance of Jesus Christ is what lands us in hell.

==============================================
Saved sinners should do their time in purgatory where they work out their own salvation [in fear and trembling!] and after this they will rise and enter heaven. Purgatory is to last about 42 months or about 1211 days (it's in the bible someplace).
==============================================

No Amos, the concept of Purgatory is not in the Bible.

Please quote chapter and verse.

Doctor X · 11-11-2003, 09:35 AM

Brian_iiii:

It is there . . . you just do not see it . . . like the passage that instructs you to tithe 10% of your income to me . . . I take checks and most major credit cards. . . .

Hence the problem with eisegesis--it puts the onus on the evaluators of the argument rather than the person who makes it. "YOU just do not see it because you did not read correctly, you are a sinner, you voted for Al Gore, whatever."

If we take that approach, chuck scholarship out the window and move on to something more fruitful . . . like wondering if Britany will follow Christina's move towards "slutty" motiff.

--J.D.

Brian_iiiii · 11-11-2003, 09:38 AM

==============================================
Purgatory is to last about 42 months or about 1211 days
==============================================

Your math doesn't check out either.

42 months = 3.5 years * 365.25 = approx. 1278 days.

Though maybe this kind of math *is* in the Bible.

Read 1 Kings 7:23, which implies pi = 3.0 !

23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

11-11-2003, 09:38 AM	#20
Brian_iiiii Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: U.S.A Posts: 63	Check your math! ============================================== Purgatory is to last about 42 months or about 1211 days ============================================== Your math doesn't check out either. 42 months = 3.5 years * 365.25 = approx. 1278 days. Though maybe this kind of math is in the Bible. Read 1 Kings 7:23, which implies pi = 3.0 ! 23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

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11-06-2003, 08:23 AM	#15
DrJim Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Lethbridge AB Canada Posts: 445	Toto: Thanks, much appreciated! Jim

11-11-2003, 09:27 AM	#18
Brian_iiiii Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: U.S.A Posts: 63	============================================== ....and so sin by itself can never land us in hell. ============================================== True. Sin coupled with non-acceptance of Jesus Christ is what lands us in hell. ============================================== Saved sinners should do their time in purgatory where they work out their own salvation [in fear and trembling!] and after this they will rise and enter heaven. Purgatory is to last about 42 months or about 1211 days (it's in the bible someplace). ============================================== No Amos, the concept of Purgatory is not in the Bible. Please quote chapter and verse.

11-11-2003, 09:35 AM	#19
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Brian_iiii: It is there . . . you just do not see it . . . like the passage that instructs you to tithe 10% of your income to me . . . I take checks and most major credit cards. . . . Hence the problem with eisegesis--it puts the onus on the evaluators of the argument rather than the person who makes it. "YOU just do not see it because you did not read correctly, you are a sinner, you voted for Al Gore, whatever." If we take that approach, chuck scholarship out the window and move on to something more fruitful . . . like wondering if Britany will follow Christina's move towards "slutty" motiff. --J.D.

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