schki bum

Yesterday in class we talked about James. Our prof had someone read James 2.14-26.

James 2.20-24

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.


She then had the class turn to Romans 4:

Romans 4.1-5

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.


It was much fun. James quotes Romans 4.3, and then uses the quote to argue the opposite position. Not only are these two sections contradictory, but one of them is specifically arguing against the position held in the other.

Does anyone know of any other examples like this from the bible? Not just contradictions, but places where someone is trying to argue against something contained elsewhere in the bible. Or is this the only case of biblical polemics?

Also, if anyone has any recommended reading for the debate over which letter has more authority, I'd love to know.

(And it hardly needs saying that I love this class!)

Tina

sparklecat

Well, I think its more that works is an evidence of that faith... if you have faith in something, but act in a way contrary to that, basically use that faith as a get out of jail free pass... then how much can you really be said to have faith? As for not working but trusting God... not in the sense that you don't do good works, but that you don't see your salvation as dependent on them... try to earn your way to heaven.

Justine

schki bum

Yes, thanks. We talked about justification through faith vs justification through works a couple of times during the course already.

What we talked about this time was a NT author using another document that is also in the NT in order to argue against its position. (Of course, when James was written, the canon had yet to be established.) Paul uses that OT quote to show that Abraham was justified through faith, and James uses the same OT quote to argue that Abraham was justified through the works he carried out as a result of his faith. Basically, we have a document in the NT trying to show that another document in the NT is wrong.

What I was asking is whether there are any other cases of this elsewhere in the bible.

(And I have met Christians who think that having faith is enough, and that they don't need to actually follow any other teachings or show any outward signs of being Christian. But this isn't the place for arguing about who the true Christians are.)

According to our prof, James's place in the canon has been controversial right from the start, and apparently Luther was also skeptical about it. I would be interested in reading material about this debate during the Reformation.

Thanks,
Tina

sparklecat

Hmm, guess I'm just trying to say that the positions are not incompatible... and rather than citing one OT verse for two contradictory NT verses, the NT verses are complimentary... both authors having the big picture in their minds and discussing different aspects of it.

Does your prof say why James's place was controversial? I'd be interested in that as well.

Justine

YHWHtruth

Mark 1:5 says, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel."
So believing in Christ means believing in the good news that he spread.
Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" So baptism seems to be a necessary step for believing.
Luke 8:13, "And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
So, you have to keep believing.
John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
So believing runs parallel to obeying the Son.
John 5:37-38, "And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not."
Now we must believe in the Father.
John 10:25-27, "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
Jesus' followers will follow him.
1Peter 2:21, "For hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that ye should follow his steps."
To be a Christian, we must follow Christ's example. Where did Jesus place importance in his life.
Matt 4:23, " And Jesus went about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom"
Matt 10:7, "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matt 11:1, "And it came to pass when Jesus had finished commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and preach in their cities."
Mk 1:14, "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God"
(See also Mk 1:38, 39; 3:14; 16:20; Lk 4:18; 43 etc etc etc.
Mt 20:28 states, "the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
The preaching work was of the upmost importance in Jesus' life. And he passed this commission on to us.
Mk 16:15, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation."
Mt 28:19, 20, "Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

True Christians would share in the preaching work. We are even told to imitate Paul in this regard (1Cor 4:16).

We are even told to evangelize, "I charge thee in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables. But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry." 2 Tim 4:1-5

This is starting to sound like works, does it not? "Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." Jas 2:24
Yes, faith, accompanied by works is what eventually saves us. The Bible has always promoted works:
Matt 5:16. Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Matt 11: 2. Now when John heard in the prison the works of the Christ, he sent by his disciples
Acts 5:38. And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will be overthrown:
Acts 9:36. Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
Acts 13: 2. And as they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Acts 26: 20. but declared both to them of Damascus first and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judaea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.
Rom 2: 5. but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works:
1 Cor 3: 9. For we are God's fellow-workers:
1 Corinthians 9:1. Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?
1 Cor 15: 58. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.
1Cor 16:10. Now if Timothy come, see that he be with you without fear; for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do:
2Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound unto you; that ye, having always all sufficiency in everything, may abound unto every good work:
2Cor 12:12. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, by signs and wonders and mighty works.
Gal 2:16. yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 6:4. But let each man prove his own work, and then shall he have his glorying in regard of himself alone, and not of his neighbor.
Gal 6: 10. So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith.
Eph 2: 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Eph 4:11. And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 5:11. and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;
Phil 2: 12. So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Phil 2: 25. But I counted it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow-worker and fellow-soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need;
Col 1:10 to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 3:23 whatsoever ye do, work heartily, as unto the Lord, and not unto men;
1Thess 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;
2 Thess 1: 11. To which end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfil every desire of goodness and every work of faith, with power; that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 2:16, 17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
1 tim 2: 9. In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment;
but (which becometh women professing godliness) through good works.
1 Tim 5:25. In like manner also there are good works that are evident; and such as are otherwise cannot be hid.
1 Tim 6: 18. that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19. laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the life which is life indeed.
2 Tim 3: 17. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
2 Tim 4:5. But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil thy ministry.
Titus 2: 6,7 the younger men likewise exhort to be sober-minded: in all things showing thyself an ensample of good works; in thy doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity,
Titus 2:13, 14 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works.
Titus 3:8. Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men:
Titus 3: 14. And let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Heb 10:24. and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;
Jas 2: 14. What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Jas 2:17. Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18. Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.
Jas 2: 20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Jas 2: 24. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Jas 2:26 26. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
3 John 1: 5. Beloved, thou doest a faithful work in whatsoever thou doest toward them that are brethren and strangers withal

Right now you are thinking about Ephesians chapter 2 where it
seems to condemn works. But this should be taken in light of what else Paul wrote. Rom . 3:20 states, "No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law." NIV
Yes, it was the works of the Mosaic Law that is downplayed in the Bible, not the works mentioned above. "For him [Paul] 'works' are 'works of the law' (Gal.3.3,5) and are opposed to faith." The Oxford Annotated Study Bible/RSV, p.1467

schki bum

Of all days, I have to pick today to leave my books for this course in my locker! I'll have to get back to this when I have my sources in front of me so I don't dig too deep a hole for myself.

Tina

DrJim

A query:
Did not Martin Luther wanted the book of James removed from his Bible, or is that an over-estimation of his objections to it? I know he produced a translation, but did the original version omit or consign to apendices certain OT, or NT books?

I know he didn't like Esther (too Judaizing), and had some problems with Revelations.

Anyone up on the Reformation to fill me in?

JRL.

Amos

Hi Tina, you should ask your prof what it means to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and see maybe if the faith of Isaac was sufficient while the faith Abraham itself was not sufficient. I think we are shown three different ways to reach the fullness of salvation and Jesus added the fourth one.

Soul Invictus

I'm finding that the 'get out of jail free' pass comparison is relative to the concept of 'backsliding'. Notice how people are never saved 'from sin' because they continue to do so. Rather they are saved from the purported negative consequence of sin, which is hell.

Doctor X

That earns a rarely given "smilie"--:notworthy

--J.D.