Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-25-2007, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

How did a twelve-year old, son of an artisan in Nazareth, of all places, provide amazing answers to leading teachers without reading their book? Supernatural revelation?

I suspect that is what the author of Luke intended. The young Jesus is portrayed as having innate intelligence and understanding, not extensive reading.

Huon · 10-25-2007, 03:20 AM

From mountainman quoting good old Eusebius :

Quote:

But we are assured by Eusebius that in fact there
were extant writings and letters of Jesus, and he
quotes and preserves this fact in his "Ecclesiastical"
History as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius, Book 1, HE
And all that our Saviour had promised received through him its fulfillment. You have written evidence of these things taken from the archives of Edessa,207 which was at that time a royal city. For in the public registers there, which contain accounts of ancient times and the acts of Abgarus, these things have been found preserved down to the present time.

But there is no better way than to hear the epistles themselves which we have taken from the archives and have literally translated from the Syriac language in the following manner.

Copy of an epistle written by Abgarus the ruler to Jesus, tend sent to him at Jerusalem by Ananias the swift courier.

From Catholic Encyclopedia (Abgar) :

Quote:

The fact related in the correspondence has long since ceased to be of any historical value. The text is borrowed in two places from that of the Gospel, which of itself is sufficient to disprove the authenticity of the letter. Moreover, the quotations are made not from the Gospels proper, but from the famous concordance of Tatian, compiled in the second century, and known as the "Diatessaron", thus fixing the date of the legend as approximately the middle of the third century. In addition, however, to the importance which it attained in the apocryphal cycle, the correspondence of King Abgar also gained a place in liturgy. The decree, "De libris non recipiendis", of the pseudo-Gelasius, places the letter among the apocrypha, which may, possibly, be an allusion to its having been interpolated among the officially sanctioned lessons of the liturgy. The Syrian liturgies commemorate the correspondence of Abgar during Lent. The Celtic liturgy appears to have attached importance to the legend; the "Liber Hymnorum", a manuscript preserved at Trinity College, Dublin (E. 4, 2), gives two collects on the lines of the letter to Abgar.

Clouseau · 10-25-2007, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

How did a twelve-year old, son of an artisan in Nazareth, of all places, provide amazing answers to leading teachers without reading their book? Supernatural revelation?

I suspect that is what the author of Luke intended.

The young Jesus is portrayed as having innate intelligence and understanding, not extensive reading.

It can't have been both revelation and intelligence intended. It was his answers that amazed, which implies that he already had his own hermeneutic views of Scripture. But anyway:

'He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written...' Lk 4:16-17 NIV

Rich Oliver · 10-25-2007, 06:27 AM

I guess there are two questions here.

1 If God incarnate, the Son of God, the Logos bothered to come down to Earth and teach, why didn't he bother to get his teachings written down, preferably in Latin. If the Son of God incarnated today I think we'ed be surprised if didn't use U-tube. I think this question applies as much to Muslims who still claim that Jesus was the second greatest Prophet ever. They claim that scribes were at hand to record Muhammed's every word, the ancient equivlent of a web cam and broadband connection. Why not Jesus?

THe second question relates to the historical Jesus. How does Jesus compare with other religious / Philosophical teachers of the ancient era. Is it reasonable to hypothesise that his teachings would have circulated in oral form for decades before being written down.

Clouseau · 10-25-2007, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

If God incarnate, the Son of God, the Logos bothered to come down to Earth and teach, why didn't he bother to get his teachings written down, preferably in Latin.

He seems to have done very well without.

Why Latin?

Diogenes the Cynic · 10-25-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

If God incarnate, the Son of God, the Logos bothered to come down to Earth and teach, why didn't he bother to get his teachings written down, preferably in Latin.

He seems to have done very well without.

I would disagree with that, since we don't really know what he said and didn't say.

Clouseau · 10-25-2007, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

He seems to have done very well without.

I would disagree with that, since we don't really know what he said and didn't say.

Billions of people claim to follow him, though most of them seem to spend more effort trying to twist what he apparently said than actually following him. Which may indicate that what he apparently said is what he actually said.

Rich Oliver · 10-25-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

How did a twelve-year old, son of an artisan in Nazareth, of all places, provide amazing answers to leading teachers without reading their book? Supernatural revelation?

Well what's most amazing to me is the reaction of his mother. She'd had a Virgin birth, angels had appeared to her. Kings with exotic gifts had appeared at his birth. Herod had masacred the infants in an attempt to elimate her son, but she was surprised when he turned out to be a bit of a child prodigy.

Diogenes the Cynic · 10-25-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I would disagree with that, since we don't really know what he said and didn't say.

Billions of people claim to follow him, though most of them seem to spend more effort trying to twist what he apparently said than actually following him. Which may indicate that what he apparently said is what he actually said.

How does it indicate that?

Clouseau · 10-25-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

How did a twelve-year old, son of an artisan in Nazareth, of all places, provide amazing answers to leading teachers without reading their book? Supernatural revelation?

Well what's most amazing to me is the reaction of his mother. She'd had a Virgin birth, angels had appeared to her. Kings with exotic gifts had appeared at his birth. Herod had masacred the infants in an attempt to elimate her son, but she was surprised when he turned out to be a bit of a child prodigy.

I agree entirely.

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10-25-2007, 06:27 AM	#14
Rich Oliver Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 54	I guess there are two questions here. 1 If God incarnate, the Son of God, the Logos bothered to come down to Earth and teach, why didn't he bother to get his teachings written down, preferably in Latin. If the Son of God incarnated today I think we'ed be surprised if didn't use U-tube. I think this question applies as much to Muslims who still claim that Jesus was the second greatest Prophet ever. They claim that scribes were at hand to record Muhammed's every word, the ancient equivlent of a web cam and broadband connection. Why not Jesus? THe second question relates to the historical Jesus. How does Jesus compare with other religious / Philosophical teachers of the ancient era. Is it reasonable to hypothesise that his teachings would have circulated in oral form for decades before being written down.

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