Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rich Oliver · 10-24-2007, 05:00 PM

In the beginning was the word:
the word was with God
and the word was God
and the word was illiterate.

Is the scholerly consensus that Jesus was illiterate? Were all of his followers illiterate? What is the explanation for there being no Gospel of Jesus?

spin · 10-24-2007, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

In the beginning was the word:
the word was with God
and the word was God
and the word was illiterate.

Is the scholerly consensus that Jesus was illiterate? Were all of his followers illiterate? What is the explanation for there being no Gospel of Jesus?

Writing things down is for lowly followers.

Toto · 10-24-2007, 06:30 PM

JP Holding claims that Jesus was actually literate, and cites primarily Meier's Marginal Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Relevant gospel quotes (from the link above):

John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Luke 4:17-20 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, ....

There are places where Jesus addresses the Pharisees with the riposte, "Have you not read..?" [Mark 2:25, 12:10, etc.] In an honor-based setting, this sort of challenge is unthinkable unless Jesus himself could read.

John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

This does nothing to answer the question of why Jesus never wrote anything. Even if he were illiterate, the custom of the day was to dictate to a scribe.

I have never read a good explanation for the lack of a Gospel of Jesus, other than the non-existance of Jesus.

mountainman · 10-24-2007, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

Is the scholerly consensus that Jesus was illiterate? Were all of his followers illiterate? What is the explanation for there being no Gospel of Jesus?

But we are assured by Eusebius that in fact there
were extant writings and letters of Jesus, and he
quotes and preserves this fact in his "Ecclesiastical"
History as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eusebius, Book 1, HE

And all that our Saviour had promised received through him its fulfillment. You have written evidence of these things taken from the archives of Edessa,207 which was at that time a royal city. For in the public registers there, which contain accounts of ancient times and the acts of Abgarus, these things have been found preserved down to the present time.

But there is no better way than to hear the epistles themselves which we have taken from the archives and have literally translated from the Syriac language in the following manner.

Copy of an epistle written by Abgarus the ruler to Jesus, tend sent to him at Jerusalem by Ananias the swift courier.

6 "Abgarus, ruler Of Edessa, to Jesus the 6 excellent Saviour who has appeared in the country of Jerusalem, greeting. I have heard the reports of thee and of thy cures as performed by thee without medicines or herbs. For it is said that thou makest the blind to see and the lame to walk, that thou cleansest lepers and castest out impure spirits and demons, and that thou healest those afflicted with lingering disease, and raisest the dead.

7 And having heard all these things concerning thee, I have concluded that one of two things must be true: either thou art God, and having come down from heaven thou doest these things, or else thou, who doest these things, art the Son of God.210

8 I have therefore written to thee to ask thee that thou wouldest take the trouble to come to me and heal the disease which I have. For I have heard that the Jews are murmuring against thee and are plotting to injure thee. But I have a very small yet noble city which is great enough for us both."

The answer of Jesus to the ruler Abgarus by the courier Ananias.

9 "Blessed art thou who hast believed in me without having seen me. For it is written concerning me, that they who have seen me will not believe in me, and that they who have not seen me will believe and be saved.212 But in regard to what thou hast written me, that I should come to thee, it is necessary for me to fulfill all things here for which I have been sent, and after I have fulfilled them thus to be taken up again to him that sent me. But after I have been taken up I will send to thee one of my disciples, that he may heal thy disease and give life to thee and thine."

So there is in fact a written word of Jesus.
The letter that he wrote was found by Eusebius
in the archives of the library at Edessa, and
was translated by Eusebius, from the Syriac
into the Greek, as he states, clearly and simply.

So clearly, Jesus was not illiterate, if we are to
believe anything that Eusebius tells us, and was
in the practice of writing in Syriac.

You dont think Eusebius practiced forgery, do you?

Diogenes the Cynic · 10-24-2007, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

JP Holding claims that Jesus was actually literate, and cites primarily Meier's Marginal Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Relevant gospel quotes (from the link above):

John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Luke 4:17-20 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, ....

There are places where Jesus addresses the Pharisees with the riposte, "Have you not read..?" [Mark 2:25, 12:10, etc.] In an honor-based setting, this sort of challenge is unthinkable unless Jesus himself could read.

John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

Obviously, Gospel stories are rather specious cites for the literacy of Jesus and at least two of these examples are demonstrable fictions. In the second example, Jesus is depicted as quoting directly from the LXX (indicating a litearry construction) and the third example is from the pericope adulterae which is not authentic to John.

Even without such flaws, the Gospels can no more be used as evidence that Jesus was literate than they can that he walked on water.

Quote:

This does nothing to answer the question of why Jesus never wrote anything. Even if he were illiterate, the custom of the day was to dictate to a scribe.

I have never read a good explanation for the lack of a Gospel of Jesus, other than the non-existance of Jesus.

John Crossan says that 95-98% of the Palestinian state was illiterate at the time of Jesus. Factor in that HJ (if he existed) belonged to a sub-peasant class and hailed from a backwater in Galilee. It's not likely that anyone in his entourage would have been any more literate than he was, nor that they would have been able to afford payrus for scrolls. The milieu of an itinerant, 1st Century preacher in Galilee would have been an oral one. One way to make teachings memorable in an oral tradition was the use of stuff like repetion but another way was to break things down into bite sized, easily remembered chunks. This especially worked well if little stories were employed. One of the distinct advantages of parables was that they were easily transmitted even if they weren't necessarily remembered verbatim. For instance, most people could basically comminicate the Good Samaritan story even if they can't quote it word for word. They can get the basic idea across. Prables work a lot like jokes in that regard. They have a set up and a punchline and it doesn't matter if you tell it exactly thesame way every time.

In short, we have no reason to believe that HJ would have tried to write a Gospel since a.) he, his followers and his audience were probably all illiterate, b.) writing materials cost money and c.) it would not have been seen as necessary when the teachings were already being engineered to survive in oral form.

Clouseau · 10-24-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

In the beginning was the word:
the word was with God
and the word was God
and the word was illiterate.

Is the scholerly consensus that Jesus was illiterate? Were all of his followers illiterate? What is the explanation for there being no Gospel of Jesus?

Scholerly?

Jesus followed the maxim that self praise is no recommendation.

mountainman · 10-25-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

scholerly

Scholerly?

Do you two know each other?

Clouseau · 10-25-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Oliver

In the beginning was the word:
the word was with God
and the word was God
and the word was illiterate.

Quote:

Is the scholerly consensus that Jesus was illiterate?

'When he was twelve years old... they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.' Lk 2:42-47 NIV

I suppose the scholerly explanation is that this is spurious, an interpolation.

Toto · 10-25-2007, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

...'When he was twelve years old... they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.' Lk 2:42-47 NIV

I suppose the scholarly explanation is that this is spurious, an interpolation.

1. There is nothing here that indicates that Jesus was literate.

2. This little story might be original to Luke, but does not appear to be historical. Josephus relates a similar story about himself, which is also probably an exercise in rhetoric and boasting, not historical.

Clouseau · 10-25-2007, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

...'When he was twelve years old... they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.' Lk 2:42-47 NIV

Quote:

1. There is nothing here that indicates that Jesus was literate.

How did a twelve-year old, son of an artisan in Nazareth, of all places, provide amazing answers to leading teachers without reading their book? Supernatural revelation?

10-24-2007, 05:00 PM	#1
Rich Oliver Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 54	The Word In the beginning was the word: the word was with God and the word was God and the word was illiterate. Is the scholerly consensus that Jesus was illiterate? Were all of his followers illiterate? What is the explanation for there being no Gospel of Jesus?

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10-24-2007, 06:30 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	JP Holding claims that Jesus was actually literate, and cites primarily Meier's Marginal Jew (or via: amazon.co.uk) Relevant gospel quotes (from the link above): John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Luke 4:17-20 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, .... There are places where Jesus addresses the Pharisees with the riposte, "Have you not read..?" [Mark 2:25, 12:10, etc.] In an honor-based setting, this sort of challenge is unthinkable unless Jesus himself could read. John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. This does nothing to answer the question of why Jesus never wrote anything. Even if he were illiterate, the custom of the day was to dictate to a scribe. I have never read a good explanation for the lack of a Gospel of Jesus, other than the non-existance of Jesus.

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