Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 12-19-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You need to answer the questions and get off your hobby horse.

I answered the question(s) in the OP. Did you?

Ben.

Doug Shaver · 12-19-2007, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Could someone please fill me in on what each of these claims is based on?

What Ben said. They are based on an assumption that the gospels and Acts contain some core of historical fact.

In particular, they assume that the gospels are correct on the following points:

Jesus was born during Herod's reign or within a few years afterward.
Jesus was "about 30" when he began his public ministry.
His ministry lasted approximately three years.
He was crucified by Pontius Pilate.

As for Paul, the book of Acts is unexplicit about when he was converted, but the nearrative clearly suggests that it happened pretty soon after the crucifixion, probably within just a few years.

dog-on · 12-20-2007, 12:23 AM

Special pleading...

squiz · 12-20-2007, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

One often hears that Christ died at the age of 33 at about 30 AD, that Paul was operating about 10 years later, etc. etc.

Could someone please fill me in on what each of these claims is based on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

These claims appear to be based on fiction as described in the NT.

Come, gentlemen. It seems clear that the OP is asking what part(s) of the NT or of Eusebius these claims are based on, not (only) whether they are true. It would seem riding a hobby horse is easier than actually answering the question.

The age of Christ at death and the other important dates of his life are estimates based on several dating indications in the NT:

1. In Matthew 2.1 Jesus is born in the days of king Herod, who died in about 4 BC.
2. Luke 2.1 appears to date the birth of Jesus at the time of the Judean census in AD 6.
3. Luke 3.1 gives a complex dating synchronism placing the beginning of the public ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, about AD 27, and Luke 3.23 further states that Jesus was about 30 years of age at this time.
4. There is a very complicated set of astronomical data concerning the years in which the Passover could have fallen on the day(s) indicated by the gospels. However, the synoptics and John appear to disagree on what day this might have been.

These are the basic data, though there are others. It should be stressed that there is no unanimity on any of these dates, and all proposed dates are approximate, even granting a sense of accuracy to at least some of the items on that list (which not everybody does).

The dates for Paul are based both on his chronological relationship to the death of Jesus (and thus depend on the items on the above list) and on his travelogue in Acts, particularly as pertains to Acts 18.12-17 and the Gallio inscription (scroll down to near the bottom of the page).

Ben.

Thanks Ben, this is just the sort of thing that I was looking for. I was just trying to gather primary evidence and was not looking for interpretations yet. I actually considered explicitly requesting that mountainman refrain from his usual assertions, but I wrongly thought it would not be necessary.

What about Paul's letters? Is there anything there that would help to date his ministry?

dog-on · 12-20-2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

What about Paul's letters? Is there anything there that would help to date his ministry?

Ben posted the reference in Acts and the Galio inscription...

I go with Marcion and his canon around 140AD. With the letters, (in the form we have them today), being later in the second century, or at least, post Justin...

Ben C Smith · 12-20-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

What about Paul's letters? Is there anything there that would help to date his ministry?

Only in the most general of terms. 2 Corinthians 11.32-33 would date that epistle to the reign of Aretas III. (On this board, spin has argued that these verses are inauthentic, based on whether or not Aretas would have had control of Damascus.)

Some verses (1 Corinthians 10.18; 2 Thessalonians 2.4; Romans 9.4) appear to presume that the temple is still standing, its sacrificial system still running.

Galatians 1.19 makes Paul a contemporary of James (the just), whom Hegesippus, Josephus (in the James reference, not accepted by all on this board), and several other texts independently date to before the fall of the temple (in century I).

Paul writes to Corinth, which was reconstituted as a city in 44 BC after being wiped out a century earlier. Paul also refers to Achaea and Macedonia as separate entities, which must postdate 27 BC.

These are (some of) the indicators apart from Acts.

Ben.

dog-on · 12-20-2007, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

What about Paul's letters? Is there anything there that would help to date his ministry?

Only in the most general of terms. 2 Corinthians 11.32-33 would date that epistle to the reign of Aretas III. (On this board, spin has argued that these verses are inauthentic, based on whether or not Aretas would have had control of Damascus.)

Some verses (1 Corinthians 10.18; 2 Thessalonians 2.4; Romans 9.4) appear to presume that the temple is still standing, its sacrificial system still running.

Galatians 1.19 makes Paul a contemporary of James (the just), whom Hegesippus, Josephus (in the James reference, not accepted by all on this board), and several other texts independently date to before the fall of the temple (in century I).

Paul writes to Corinth, which was reconstituted as a city in 44 BC after being wiped out a century earlier. Paul also refers to Achaea and Macedonia as separate entities, which must postdate 27 BC.

These are (some of) the indicators apart from Acts.

Ben.

James (the Just)?????

Ben C Smith · 12-20-2007, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

James (the Just)?????

(What exactly is your question?)

Ben.

PhilosopherJay · 12-20-2007, 06:08 AM

Hi Squiz,

What do you consider "primary evidence" and "interpretation"

For example, if I say Peter Parker (AKA Spiderman) was born in 1947 and someone asks, "How do you know this?"

I say that he is first mentioned as being 15 years old in the comic book "Amazing Fantasies" (#15) which was published in 1962.

Shall we call this "primary evidence" for the date of the birth of Peter Parker.

Might not someone say that this is an interpretation?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Come, gentlemen. It seems clear that the OP is asking what part(s) of the NT or of Eusebius these claims are based on, not (only) whether they are true. It would seem riding a hobby horse is easier than actually answering the question.

The age of Christ at death and the other important dates of his life are estimates based on several dating indications in the NT:

1. In Matthew 2.1 Jesus is born in the days of king Herod, who died in about 4 BC.
2. Luke 2.1 appears to date the birth of Jesus at the time of the Judean census in AD 6.
3. Luke 3.1 gives a complex dating synchronism placing the beginning of the public ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar, about AD 27, and Luke 3.23 further states that Jesus was about 30 years of age at this time.
4. There is a very complicated set of astronomical data concerning the years in which the Passover could have fallen on the day(s) indicated by the gospels. However, the synoptics and John appear to disagree on what day this might have been.

These are the basic data, though there are others. It should be stressed that there is no unanimity on any of these dates, and all proposed dates are approximate, even granting a sense of accuracy to at least some of the items on that list (which not everybody does).

The dates for Paul are based both on his chronological relationship to the death of Jesus (and thus depend on the items on the above list) and on his travelogue in Acts, particularly as pertains to Acts 18.12-17 and the Gallio inscription (scroll down to near the bottom of the page).

Ben.

Thanks Ben, this is just the sort of thing that I was looking for. I was just trying to gather primary evidence and was not looking for interpretations yet. I actually considered explicitly requesting that mountainman refrain from his usual assertions, but I wrongly thought it would not be necessary.

What about Paul's letters? Is there anything there that would help to date his ministry?

aa5874 · 12-20-2007, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

What about Paul's letters? Is there anything there that would help to date his ministry?

There isn't anything in "Paul's" letters that would help to date his ministry. For example, in 2 Corinthians 12.31, "Paul" claimed he was in Damascus during the time of King Aretas, but without any external corroboration, that information may in fact be mis-leading and deliberately so.

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12-20-2007, 12:23 AM	#13
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Special pleading...

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