Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 10-06-2006, 03:31 AM

1n 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, King David takes a census of Israel, counting up how many possible solders he can command. But God doesn't like that and offers him a tough choice: three years of famine, three months of being conquered, or three days of a plague. David chooses the plague.

That's rather perplexing -- does the Biblical God hate statistics? Or was there something else involved, like preparing for a military adventure? If so, then that's a rather roundabout way of objecting.

Also, in the Samuel version, God is a real dick - he convinces David to take that census, and he acts sore at David for doing so. The Chronicles version makes God a bit less of a dick by saying that it was the Devil who inspired David to take that census. Though he doesn't appear to David and say "Please don't take that census. It's the Devil who wants you to, and he's not a very nice guy." Perhaps with explaining to David whatever reason he does not want David to take a census.

WishboneDawn · 10-06-2006, 04:14 AM

From what I've read it could have been pride in counting the people and possibly the hint of claiming them (As his own when they are God's) that angered god. My own feeling is that these stories are always written after the fact and so perhaps in was explanatory? For the ancient hebrews if bad things happened it was because you weren't blessed, because you had sinned somehow and God was punishing you. Maybe there was some disease or famine that was coincidental with the census (in David's time or another time and it made it into the legends of David) and so it was targeted as the sin?

That's my guess anyhow. Hope to see some better and more thoughtful suggestions.

Draconis · 10-06-2006, 04:33 AM

In fact why not ask God (the invisible databank) how many people he has?

purple_kathryn · 10-06-2006, 04:52 AM

and why is god no longer pissed off at (the plural of) census?

We get one every 10 years and not a damned peep out of him! not even when all those folks put Jedi Master as their religion!

Malachi151 · 10-06-2006, 05:24 AM

That was actually one of the first things when I was a kid that made me think that Bible was bogus, because all of the numbers of people listed in the Bible wre like 10,000, 500, 30,000, etc.

I was thinking, if they was the divine word of God, and he told people these things, and God has perfect knowledge, then wouldn't he have told them the exact numbers instead of rounding?

Gee, I figured that out in like 3rd grade....

camp freddie · 10-06-2006, 05:56 AM

We got him with a mind trick. They work especially well on the weak-minded.

These are not the web-sites you're loking for:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

Wymihere · 10-06-2006, 05:58 AM

Looks more like he just hates people......any 5 year old could/would have benn able to come up with a better plan.

John Kesler · 10-06-2006, 07:27 AM

There are various discrepancies between the accounts:

Who tempted David to take the census (2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chron 21:1)?
How long would the famine, offered as one of the choices of punishment, last (2 Sam 24:13; 1 Chron 21:12)?
How much did David pay Araunah/Ornan for the threshing floor (2 Sam 24:24; 1 Chron 21:25)?

Also notice that David states that he sinned by taking the census (2 Samuel 24:10, 17; 1 Chronicles 21:8, 17), and God obviously agreed, since he offered David a choice of punishments, yet 1 Kings 15:5 states that David "did what was right in the sight of Yahweh, and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." How can 1 Kings 15:5 be accurate?

John Kesler · 10-06-2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

That's rather perplexing -- does the Biblical God hate statistics? Or was there something else involved, like preparing for a military adventure? If so, then that's a rather roundabout way of objecting.

Josephus gives a reason in Antiquities, Book 7, chapter 13:

Quote:

NOW king David was desirous to know how many ten thousands there were of the people, but forgot the commands of Moses, who told them beforehand, that if the multitude were numbered, they should pay half a shekel to God for every head. Accordingly the king commanded Joab, the captain of his host, to go and number the whole multitude; but when he said there was no necessity for such a numeration, he was not persuaded [to countermand it], but he enjoined him to make no delay, but to go about the numbering of the Hebrews immediately. So Joab took with him the heads of the tribes, and the scribes, and went over the country of the Israelites, and took notice how numerous the multitude were, and returned to Jerusalem to the king, after nine months and twenty days; and he gave in to the king the number of the people, without the tribe of Benjamin, for he had not yet numbered that tribe, no more than the tribe of Levi, for the king repented of his having sinned against God. Now the number of the rest of the Israelites was nine hundred thousand men, who were able to bear arms and go to war; but the tribe of Judah, by itself, was four hundred thousand men.

An endnote provided in this version elaborates:

Quote:

The words of God by Moses, Exodus 30:12, sufficiently satisfy the reason here given by Josephus for the great plague mentioned in this chapter: — "When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give a ransom for his soul unto the Lord, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague amongst them, when numberest them."

Clivedurdle · 10-06-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

and why is god no longer pissed off at (the plural of) census?

We get one every 10 years and not a damned peep out of him! not even when all those folks put Jedi Master as their religion!

I did!

It is even more interesting if god as well as hating fags hates numbers because for example the Fibernici series, pi, e, the golden rule are ubiquitous in the universe, and any one supporting a goddidit id theory I would have thought would have asked why?

But the answer to that - which we probably haven't got yet, is also related to the development of the universe - we may be looking at structural results that enabled further development and evolution, so oh dear, god didn't do it!

Is it possible to have a serious look at the role of maths in the Bible, without getting lost in numerology? There are some strange numbers chucked in, for example in the gospels, that may make sense from a corrupted pythagorean meme with strong religious and spiritual undertones.

10-06-2006, 03:31 AM	#1
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Does God Hate Statistics? 1n 2 Samuel 24 and 1 Chronicles 21, King David takes a census of Israel, counting up how many possible solders he can command. But God doesn't like that and offers him a tough choice: three years of famine, three months of being conquered, or three days of a plague. David chooses the plague. That's rather perplexing -- does the Biblical God hate statistics? Or was there something else involved, like preparing for a military adventure? If so, then that's a rather roundabout way of objecting. Also, in the Samuel version, God is a real dick - he convinces David to take that census, and he acts sore at David for doing so. The Chronicles version makes God a bit less of a dick by saying that it was the Devil who inspired David to take that census. Though he doesn't appear to David and say "Please don't take that census. It's the Devil who wants you to, and he's not a very nice guy." Perhaps with explaining to David whatever reason he does not want David to take a census.

10-06-2006, 05:58 AM	#7
Wymihere Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Texas Posts: 766	Hate statistics?? Looks more like he just hates people......any 5 year old could/would have benn able to come up with a better plan.

10-06-2006, 07:27 AM	#8
John Kesler Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 1,037	There are various discrepancies between the accounts: Who tempted David to take the census (2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chron 21:1)? How long would the famine, offered as one of the choices of punishment, last (2 Sam 24:13; 1 Chron 21:12)? How much did David pay Araunah/Ornan for the threshing floor (2 Sam 24:24; 1 Chron 21:25)? Also notice that David states that he sinned by taking the census (2 Samuel 24:10, 17; 1 Chronicles 21:8, 17), and God obviously agreed, since he offered David a choice of punishments, yet 1 Kings 15:5 states that David "did what was right in the sight of Yahweh, and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." How can 1 Kings 15:5 be accurate?

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10-06-2006, 04:14 AM	#2
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	From what I've read it could have been pride in counting the people and possibly the hint of claiming them (As his own when they are God's) that angered god. My own feeling is that these stories are always written after the fact and so perhaps in was explanatory? For the ancient hebrews if bad things happened it was because you weren't blessed, because you had sinned somehow and God was punishing you. Maybe there was some disease or famine that was coincidental with the census (in David's time or another time and it made it into the legends of David) and so it was targeted as the sin? That's my guess anyhow. Hope to see some better and more thoughtful suggestions.

10-06-2006, 04:33 AM	#3
Draconis Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 3,165	In fact why not ask God (the invisible databank) how many people he has?

10-06-2006, 04:52 AM	#4
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	and why is god no longer pissed off at (the plural of) census? We get one every 10 years and not a damned peep out of him! not even when all those folks put Jedi Master as their religion!

10-06-2006, 05:24 AM	#5
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	That was actually one of the first things when I was a kid that made me think that Bible was bogus, because all of the numbers of people listed in the Bible wre like 10,000, 500, 30,000, etc. I was thinking, if they was the divine word of God, and he told people these things, and God has perfect knowledge, then wouldn't he have told them the exact numbers instead of rounding? Gee, I figured that out in like 3rd grade....

10-06-2006, 05:56 AM	#6
camp freddie Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 503	We got him with a mind trick. They work especially well on the weak-minded. These are not the web-sites you're loking for: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2757067.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

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