hatsoff

The discussion about Peter/Cephas reminded me of a question I have about translation and transliteration....

"Peter" is used in place of a Greek word transliterated as "Petros," and translated (more or less) as "rock" or "stone." Neither the transliteration nor the translation are used. Instead, we have a half-transliterated, half-invented word.

I'm sure there are other examples, too. Why does this happen?

hjalti

Yes, "Peter" is silly. It should of course be: ROCKY!

Ben C Smith

I think in this case it is because Peter is a real, viable English name that evolved along the usual linguistic lines from the Latin Petrus, which in turn came from the Greek, as you mentioned. (I have a feeling the Old French probably came in somewhere between Latin and English, but I am not sure.) Translators often resort to transliterations when the name in question did not evolve into a viable name in English.

Ben.

jeffevnz

I'm picturing him fighting that lion with "Eye of the Tiger" playing in the background.

Toto

Jacobus is translated into James. Iesous is translated into Jesus. These are translations into familiar names.

Ben C Smith

And, believe it or not, there is an actual etymological history between Iacobus and James.

In fact, all of the following, I believe, are etymologically connected:

French Jacques.
English Jacob, Jack, Jake.
English James.
Spanish Iago.
Spanish Santiago (Santo plus Iago).
German Jakobus.
Italian Giacomo.

Ben.

gstafleu

Don't get me started on transliterations into the English language(if it be lawful to call it a language). Or perhaps do.

As Toto pointed out, Iacobos is "transliterated" as James. Now that may be because Latin was for a long time the language of the church, and Iacomus is a late Latin version of Iacobus. English isn't the only culprit:
English makes a general mess of transliterating classic names, though. Take Pliny. That was not the guy's name, it was Plinius. Fine, you'll say, so we just change -ius to -y. Which explains Euseby, doesn't it? Hm, maybe not, he is still good old Eusebius. How about Vergily and Ovidy then? Apparently not.

Here is my -ius transliteration rule:
If a classic author's name ends in -ius,
1) it is changed in -y if he writes prose.
2) If the author writes dactylic hexameters the -ius is dropped altogether.
3) If the author writes prose but it is church history, we reverently keep the whole name.
4) If your name is Hieronymus you are totally screwed.

OK, so the last one doesn't end in -ius, but can you guess the English form without googling? Here it is: Jerome. Loses something, doesn't it? Not in the least the fact that the name actually means something: holy name. Which is of some significance for the guy who translated the bible into Latin.

So lets move from Latin to Greek. Origen is often mention in this forum. His real name? Origenes. A minor detail, maybe, but it sows confusion. Are all Greek sounding names that end in -n now suspect? No, as far as I can tell Marcion is actually called Marcion. Well, Markion really, he doesn't rhyme with Martian.

Is -es always dropped from Greek names? No, witness Socrates, who really should be Socrate. After all it is Aristotle, not Aristoteles, which is what his mother called him.

All in all, the English language (if it be lawful to call it a language) tends to turn classic names into a sort of "texting language," like the kids use when sending short text messages via their cell phones. And if you think that doesn't matter in literature, here is a bit of Shakespeare where useless endings have been dropped and some bits contracted (like with James and Jerome):

Dub dub toil and trub
Fir burn and caldy bub.

Here is a plea to all speakers of the English language (if it be lawful to call it a language) on this forum. If it is a Latin name, just use the letters one by one. It isn't difficult, after all they use a roman font. If it is Greek to you, maybe use this: http://ncnever.free.fr/translit/. Just don't leave out any letters or you'll be caught!

Gerard Stafleu

rhutchin

From Wikipedia-- "Peter is a popular male given name. It comes from the Greek word π�*τρα (read petra, in Latin used as petro-), meaning rock.

According to the New Testament, Jesus gave the Apostle Peter (whose given name was Simon) the name Rock (Kephas or Cephas in Aramaic; Petros or "bedros" (Greek). The name was transliterated into Latin as Petrus, from which the English form Peter derives."

Also, Peter is referred to as Simon Peter many times in the NT. He was called Petros in the greek.

hatsoff

That was another question I had: Jesus isn't even Yeshua? He's "Iasus?"

Toto

Jesus is IESOUS, transliterated to English as Jesus, which is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew Joshua and the Aramaic Yeshua. Yeshua is an artificial modern reference based on the assumption that Jesus would have spoken Aramaic, but there are no documents using the name Yeshua.