Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 09:58 AM

That's probably why black people are so 'into' the Bible. It really speaks to them in a way that doesn't work for most people in the suburbs (unless you live in the southern United States). I don't say this because of some out of touch generalization. I really know what I am talking about with respect to the African and African American love of the Bible. They generally take this stuff very seriously and the connection is very real.

Five hundred years ago and less, the Jews found themselves in a very similar social situation that blacks generally find themselves in today. If you look at the 'lessons' of the Pentateuch in an abstract sense - yes of course an argument can be made for its self-contradiction and 'primitiveness.' No it's not Plato. But it is all about surviving and survival. That's how 'virtue' is defined in the Bible - outlasting adversity. And that's why it speaks to so many people who find themselves in unfortunate situations. Just 'keeping it real.'

Zwaarddijk · 02-04-2013, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Right. The reason Christians were considered Edom was because Jesus was Esau.

It seems rabbinic sources associate Edom with Rome way before Rome and Christianity became particularly close, and it is likely that Christianity is Edom simply because Christianity was closely associated with Rome later on. Shitty pseudo-etymological arguments are shitty unless backed up by some external evidence.

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 02:17 PM

But where is the pre-Christian Jewish identification of Rome as Edom?

Zwaarddijk · 02-04-2013, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But where is the pre-Christian Jewish identification of Rome as Edom?

Why should such an identification have to be pre-Christian? You find it as early as the Bar Kochba revolt, yet Christianity was not on very friendly terms with Rome at that point, nor was it particularly clear that it would be the state religion of Rome a bit more than a century and a half down the line. Do point out an earlier identification of Christianity with Edom or stop arguing from pure speculation.

sotto voce · 02-04-2013, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwaarddijk

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

But where is the pre-Christian Jewish identification of Rome as Edom?

Why should such an identification have to be pre-Christian? You find it as early as the Bar Kochba revolt, yet Christianity was not on very friendly terms with Rome at that point

Bob Hope lives.

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 02:45 PM

Justin Martyr identifies the Christian religion as Esau somewhere with hostility against the Jewish "Jacob." Just driving now

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 04:02 PM

The references to Esau in Justin Martyr which support my contention:

And there he (Jacob) built an altar, and called the name of that place Bethel; for there God appeared to him when he fled from the face of his brother Esau. And Deborah, Rebekah's nurse, died, and was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and Jacob called the name of it The Oak of Sorrow. And God appeared again to Jacob in Luz, when he came out from Mesopotamia in Syria, and He blessed him. And God said to him, Thy name shall be no more called Jacob, but Israel shall he thy name.' He is called God, and He is and shall be God." And when all had agreed on these grounds, I continued: "Moreover, I consider it necessary to repeat to you the words which narrate how He who is both Angel and God and Lord, and who appeared as a man to Abraham, and who wrestled in human form with Jacob, was seen by him when he fled from his brother Esau." [Dialogue 58]

And I replied, "Now assuredly, Trypho, I shall show that, in the vision of Moses, this same One alone who is called an Angel, and who is God, appeared to and communed with Moses. For the Scripture says thus:'The Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the bush; and he sees that the bush bums with fire, but the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside and see this great sight, for the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he is turning aside to behold, the Lord called to him out of the bush.' In the same manner, therefore, in which the Scripture calls Him who appeared to Jacob in the dream an Angel, then[says] that the same Angel who appeared in the dream spoke to him, saying,'I am the God that appeared to thee when thou didst flee from the face of Esau thy brother;'and[again] says that, in the judgment which befell Sodom in the days of Abraham, the Lord had inflicted the punishment of the Lord who[dwells] in the heavens;--even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other[God]. [ibid]

And I replied, "I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus: 'I, the Lord God, have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house.' And again: 'Lift up a standard s for the people; for, lo, the Lord has made it heard unto the end of the earth. Say ye to the daughters of Zion, Behold, thy Saviour has come; having His reward, and His work before His face: and He shall call it a holy nation, redeemed by the Lord. And thou shalt be called a city sought out, and not forsaken. Who is this that cometh from Edom? in red garments from Bosor? This that is beautiful in apparel, going up with great strength? I speak righteousness, and the judgment of salvation. Why are Thy garments red, and Thine apparel as from the trodden wine-press? Thou art full of the trodden grape. I have trodden the wine-press all alone, and of the people there is no man with Me; and I have trampled them in fury, and crushed them to the ground, and spilled their blood on the earth. For the day of retribution has come upon them, and the year of redemption is present. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I considered, and none assisted: and My arm delivered; and My fury came on them, and I trampled them in My fury, and spilled their blood on the earth.'" [ibid 26]

stephan huller · 02-04-2013, 05:05 PM

Now you may wonder how does this show that Esau was God. Let's start with the MT actually has here:

Quote:

There he built an altar, and he called the place El Bethel, because it was there that God revealed himself to him when he was fleeing from his brother.

and the LXX says pretty much the same thing. Justin's text seems to suggest that God originally told Jacob - "'I am the God that appeared to thee when thou didst flee from the face of Esau thy brother." Moreover it should be noted that Clement of Alexandria and Philo before him say that it was at this point in the narrative that Jacob passed from the jurisdiction of one god to the other, or if you prefer one side of the godhead to the other (from judgement to mercy). This can't be coincidence. There must have been an early Christian understanding inherited from Alexandrian Judaism that Esau was one of the two powers of the godhead. The mystical transference of names is rooted in the original narrative featuring Esau.

Montgomery Scott · 02-05-2013, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montgomery Scott

To be brief and not go so deeply in the Bible story.

Esau coming back from hunting or whatnot all day and he returns hungry as a bear and his little brother went "I'll give you a bowl of my stew for your birthright" with dumbass Esau saying, "Ok, what do I care? Take it."

The problem is that the birthright was not Esau's to sell or Jacob to buy. Dad never was told of this business agreement. But again, dad (Isaac) would have said, "Sorry Jake, your agreement is invalid, since it was decreed by God that the elder gets the birthright."

Then when Issac was near death, Issac and his mother devised a scheme to lie to a blind Issac to get the birthright (deceit, lying). While Esau was out hunting, Issac came in dressed as Esau with a hairy costume, delivers food to Issac. Issac questioned who wasgiving him his food, but was reassured by his wife that Jacob was Esau and bestowed the birthright on Jacob.

Esau came back and found out that the transfer of birthright was irreversable, even though it was done under fraud (by Jake and mom). Can't blame Esau from getting pissed off (which I do not blame him).

Jacob did kind of pay for his bullshit, because he had to run to his Uncle Laban for protection. If you are a Trekkie, Laban was sort of the Quark of the story. Jacob fell in love with his cousin Rebekah and wanted to marry her and Laban agreed for seven years servitude on his farm (remember, Jacob is already has the birthright of the properties of Issac and Abraham) and then somehow passed off his awkward, older, uglier daughter Leah off. Jacob, realizing that he got the wrong wife, bitched to Laban, and Laban (Leah played by MacKenzie Phillips in the forgotten 'One Day at a Time' biblical epic) went, "Ok, you can marry my Valarie Bertinelli looking daughter for seven more years of servitude." Jake does the seven years, but is allowed to marry/lay Rebecca before the servitude is up.

Then God allows the uglier Leah to bear Jake kids while Becky was infertile. This was in the good old days of 1900 BC when it was cool for one man to have sister wives (which would now would be in the church adultry). Eventually, God bestows a kid to Becky named Joseph (who went on to do the Broadway play about a Technicolor Dreamcoat)

God makes things so difficult. Is the 14 years on Uncle Laban's farm a punishment for Jacob doing the right thing, that God intended and put in His Holy Book that we read today?

In the end of the story, Esau and Jacob reunite in love like "Damn, bro, it's been twenty five years, cool man, I have my camels, my land and my woman and, oh, you went to Uncle Laban's house? Ha! Ha! Serves you right. Two wives constantly mad for your affection and attention? That's what you get for fucking me out of my birthright!" Hugs on Earth, but in the end, Esau went to hell and Jake to heaven because God "Loved Esau from the womb, but Esau I hated. (Romans 9:13) This is a true example of the Bible that God doesn't love everyone, and He destined Esau for hell when he was concieved.

So, in this story, God made the second son the birthright holder, but to do that required him and his mother to lie, and cheat the older brother. The Christians will say that Esau sold the birthright. Well, Jacob had no right to sell the birthright in the first place, except that God wrote this story of "Days of our Lives" and this is what happened. The story of Jacob wearing hairy arms is just a lie and deciet, can't say that, "oh well, this was before the 10 Commandments" about lying, since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Lying, cheating and disseat is all I see how of this story. I never understood how this story can be taught as a "Bible story".

If I were to debate any Christian (or Jew really) I would bring up this tale. Discuss.

I was drunk when I wrote that (I and Johnnie Walker were taking a walk) and I have nejoyed reading my story. I should have been a minister, but I could not live with myself as a con man to innocent, well meaning people.

Praise Buddha!

Tenorikuma · 02-05-2013, 07:14 AM

Huller, any ideas about the mythical angle? When you have two brothers, one hirsute and one smooth, that often suggests astrological myths: the sun and the moon. (Same goes for Elijah and Elisha.)

Now, during Paul's time, the "Edomites" would have been the Idumeans — recent converts to Judaism under coercion by Hyrcanus and the Hasmoneans if I recall — but not true Jews. Herod the Great must have been the most famous Idumean in recent memory.

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02-04-2013, 09:58 AM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That's probably why black people are so 'into' the Bible. It really speaks to them in a way that doesn't work for most people in the suburbs (unless you live in the southern United States). I don't say this because of some out of touch generalization. I really know what I am talking about with respect to the African and African American love of the Bible. They generally take this stuff very seriously and the connection is very real. Five hundred years ago and less, the Jews found themselves in a very similar social situation that blacks generally find themselves in today. If you look at the 'lessons' of the Pentateuch in an abstract sense - yes of course an argument can be made for its self-contradiction and 'primitiveness.' No it's not Plato. But it is all about surviving and survival. That's how 'virtue' is defined in the Bible - outlasting adversity. And that's why it speaks to so many people who find themselves in unfortunate situations. Just 'keeping it real.'

02-04-2013, 02:17 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But where is the pre-Christian Jewish identification of Rome as Edom?

02-04-2013, 02:45 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Justin Martyr identifies the Christian religion as Esau somewhere with hostility against the Jewish "Jacob." Just driving now

02-04-2013, 04:02 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The references to Esau in Justin Martyr which support my contention: And there he (Jacob) built an altar, and called the name of that place Bethel; for there God appeared to him when he fled from the face of his brother Esau. And Deborah, Rebekah's nurse, died, and was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and Jacob called the name of it The Oak of Sorrow. And God appeared again to Jacob in Luz, when he came out from Mesopotamia in Syria, and He blessed him. And God said to him, Thy name shall be no more called Jacob, but Israel shall he thy name.' He is called God, and He is and shall be God." And when all had agreed on these grounds, I continued: "Moreover, I consider it necessary to repeat to you the words which narrate how He who is both Angel and God and Lord, and who appeared as a man to Abraham, and who wrestled in human form with Jacob, was seen by him when he fled from his brother Esau." [Dialogue 58] And I replied, "Now assuredly, Trypho, I shall show that, in the vision of Moses, this same One alone who is called an Angel, and who is God, appeared to and communed with Moses. For the Scripture says thus:'The Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the bush; and he sees that the bush bums with fire, but the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will turn aside and see this great sight, for the bush is not burnt. And when the Lord saw that he is turning aside to behold, the Lord called to him out of the bush.' In the same manner, therefore, in which the Scripture calls Him who appeared to Jacob in the dream an Angel, then[says] that the same Angel who appeared in the dream spoke to him, saying,'I am the God that appeared to thee when thou didst flee from the face of Esau thy brother;'and[again] says that, in the judgment which befell Sodom in the days of Abraham, the Lord had inflicted the punishment of the Lord who[dwells] in the heavens;--even so here, the Scripture, in announcing that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and in afterwards declaring him to be Lord and God, speaks of the same One, whom it declares by the many testimonies already quoted to be minister to God, who is above the world, above whom there is no other[God]. [ibid] And I replied, "I do not say so; but those who have persecuted and do persecute Christ, if they do not repent, shall not inherit anything on the holy mountain. But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented of the sins which they have committed, they shall receive the inheritance along with the patriarchs and the prophets, and the just men who are descended from Jacob, even although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumcised, nor observe the feasts. Assuredly they shall receive the holy inheritance of God. For God speaks by Isaiah thus: 'I, the Lord God, have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house.' And again: 'Lift up a standard s for the people; for, lo, the Lord has made it heard unto the end of the earth. Say ye to the daughters of Zion, Behold, thy Saviour has come; having His reward, and His work before His face: and He shall call it a holy nation, redeemed by the Lord. And thou shalt be called a city sought out, and not forsaken. Who is this that cometh from Edom? in red garments from Bosor? This that is beautiful in apparel, going up with great strength? I speak righteousness, and the judgment of salvation. Why are Thy garments red, and Thine apparel as from the trodden wine-press? Thou art full of the trodden grape. I have trodden the wine-press all alone, and of the people there is no man with Me; and I have trampled them in fury, and crushed them to the ground, and spilled their blood on the earth. For the day of retribution has come upon them, and the year of redemption is present. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I considered, and none assisted: and My arm delivered; and My fury came on them, and I trampled them in My fury, and spilled their blood on the earth.'" [ibid 26]

02-05-2013, 07:14 AM	#20
Tenorikuma Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Japan Posts: 156	Huller, any ideas about the mythical angle? When you have two brothers, one hirsute and one smooth, that often suggests astrological myths: the sun and the moon. (Same goes for Elijah and Elisha.) Now, during Paul's time, the "Edomites" would have been the Idumeans — recent converts to Judaism under coercion by Hyrcanus and the Hasmoneans if I recall — but not true Jews. Herod the Great must have been the most famous Idumean in recent memory.

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