Montgomery Scott

To be brief and not go so deeply in the Bible story.

Esau coming back from hunting or whatnot all day and he returns hungry as a bear and his little brother went "I'll give you a bowl of my stew for your birthright" with dumbass Esau saying, "Ok, what do I care? Take it."

The problem is that the birthright was not Esau's to sell or Jacob to buy. Dad never was told of this business agreement. But again, dad (Isaac) would have said, "Sorry Jake, your agreement is invalid, since it was decreed by God that the elder gets the birthright."

Then when Issac was near death, Issac and his mother devised a scheme to lie to a blind Issac to get the birthright (deceit, lying). While Esau was out hunting, Issac came in dressed as Esau with a hairy costume, delivers food to Issac. Issac questioned who wasgiving him his food, but was reassured by his wife that Jacob was Esau and bestowed the birthright on Jacob.

Esau came back and found out that the transfer of birthright was irreversable, even though it was done under fraud (by Jake and mom). Can't blame Esau from getting pissed off (which I do not blame him).

Jacob did kind of pay for his bullshit, because he had to run to his Uncle Laban for protection. If you are a Trekkie, Laban was sort of the Quark of the story. Jacob fell in love with his cousin Rebekah and wanted to marry her and Laban agreed for seven years servitude on his farm (remember, Jacob is already has the birthright of the properties of Issac and Abraham) and then somehow passed off his awkward, older, uglier daughter Leah off. Jacob, realizing that he got the wrong wife, bitched to Laban, and Laban (Leah played by MacKenzie Phillips in the forgotten 'One Day at a Time' biblical epic) went, "Ok, you can marry my Valarie Bertinelli looking daughter for seven more years of servitude." Jake does the seven years, but is allowed to marry/lay Rebecca before the servitude is up.

Then God allows the uglier Leah to bear Jake kids while Becky was infertile. This was in the good old days of 1900 BC when it was cool for one man to have sister wives (which would now would be in the church adultry). Eventually, God bestows a kid to Becky named Joseph (who went on to do the Broadway play about a Technicolor Dreamcoat)

God makes things so difficult. Is the 14 years on Uncle Laban's farm a punishment for Jacob doing the right thing, that God intended and put in His Holy Book that we read today?

In the end of the story, Esau and Jacob reunite in love like "Damn, bro, it's been twenty five years, cool man, I have my camels, my land and my woman and, oh, you went to Uncle Laban's house? Ha! Ha! Serves you right. Two wives constantly mad for your affection and attention? That's what you get for fucking me out of my birthright!" Hugs on Earth, but in the end, Esau went to hell and Jake to heaven because God "Loved Esau from the womb, but Esau I hated. (Romans 9:13) This is a true example of the Bible that God doesn't love everyone, and He destined Esau for hell when he was concieved.

So, in this story, God made the second son the birthright holder, but to do that required him and his mother to lie, and cheat the older brother. The Christians will say that Esau sold the birthright. Well, Jacob had no right to sell the birthright in the first place, except that God wrote this story of "Days of our Lives" and this is what happened. The story of Jacob wearing hairy arms is just a lie and deciet, can't say that, "oh well, this was before the 10 Commandments" about lying, since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Lying, cheating and disseat is all I see how of this story. I never understood how this story can be taught as a "Bible story".

If I were to debate any Christian (or Jew really) I would bring up this tale. Discuss.

stephan huller

Esau was an angel, the angel of the presence. The narrative isn't an account of two twins like a Doublemint gum commercial. The story cryptically reinforces that the Israelite cultus is focused on the path to divinity. Look at "to see your face is like seeing the face of God" (פְּנֵ֥י אֱלֹהִ֖ים) in Genesis 33:10. Things are not as they appear to be. The narrative was deliberately cryptic. Peniel = Gerizim the place where Jacob had a vision of the heavenly ladder and where - according to tradition - at the very top of the ladder sits an enthroned Jacob/Israel, a man made angel.

Hate the idiotic tradition and interpretation of YOUR ancestors. The narrative is more sophisticated than you might want to admit. This says nothing about whether humanity CAN indeed become divine. That's a wholly separate issue (= were the Jews like modern Scientologists establishing promises they couldn't deliver). The people who wrote the narrative and continued to perpetuation its holiness may well have been charlatans (so Celsus). But the Protestant literal interpretation of the narrative is idiotic, not the narrative.

sotto voce

So Calvinists say. But that is not what Paul wrote. The clue is that, just as the foreknowledge of God was that he would come to earth to atone for sins for all, that foreknowledge also encompassed the knowledge of who would accept atonement; the elect. So, I hear you mutter, why did God need to create a world where sin would take place, if he already knew who were the elect, and, by elimination, who were the reprobate? Because even God cannot condemn or reward without evidence. He treats 'gods' with more respect. So, when there are complaints about sending some to heaven, God's angel will look out the video, and press 'Play'. No argument.

That does not mean that anyone else, including angels, knows who are the reprobate, and who the elect.

Only Calvinists.

Montgomery Scott

Good Stephan Huller (I guess),

But there was still deception and lies in what God planned anyway and required people to lie to cheat to make the action happen. Even if it was from God, it is still the human's fault for being liars, cheats and adulterers (from having to marry one sister and having sex with another sister Jake loved, while continuing to have sex with a woman he did not love)

The general idea of nominal Christianity is to have a heterosexual relationship with one person, and especially not to have the sex with one's sister in law.

semiopen

Ironically, Christians are considered Edomites by Jews. The idea is that Jacob - Jews; Ishmael - Islam; and Edom - Christians.

EDOM AS ROME

There is a tendency to view the Patriarchs as being characters that should be emulated, which is probably not what the original authors intended.

Esau is in many ways a sympathetic character. For example

It's not clear to me whether Jacob ever does anything that is equally praiseworthy.

stephan huller

Right. The reason Christians were considered Edom was because Jesus was Esau.

stephan huller

Yes but this wasn't a story meant to be taken literally true. Come on. How else to explain the Akedah? Really? So God wants every father to take his son up to the top of a mountain? Once white people get out of the business of interpreting the Bible the world will be a better place.

stephan huller

I've been around Jews all my life. I've never heard any of them go on and take seriously any of these stories in the manner that non-Jews do. I can't explain it really. Yes they know these stories. But they are stories. No one sits around with the silly childish reverence for these figures and actions in the manner that we see among white people. I've sat through Christian services on occasion and I can't help but groan whenever 'the Old Testament' reading comes. The interpretation is so stale and sanctimonious. The Old Testament figures are transformed into the ideal of 'the saint.' The only time I have seen something close to this is the way the Samaritans talk about their Mushi (= Moses). But even then there is an acknowledgement that these are just stories. There is a shrug of the shoulders whenever a difficulty inevitably arises.

Stop taking this stuff so seriously. This goes both ways. You are reacting to the literal interpretation of your ancestors and the assumed piety of these Patriarchs. Nietzsche made a good point when he compared the Old Testament figures to the wily Odysseus. This is a wholly Mediterranean hero typology. You know. The closest modern example is when the rapper starts speaking in 'street lingo' - 'you know what I'm saying' 'you know what I'm saying.' The virtue of living by one's wits and 'surviving.' It was never meant to be white and sanctimonious.

sotto voce

This forum would be a better place without such as the above.

stephan huller

The Jews and their Bible were the urban street poets of antiquity. The narrative represents a barbaric mysticism that was all about 'surviving in the hood' - in this case the crossroads of many ancient civilizations. As the rappers say - hate the game not the player (playa).