Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 02-13-2005, 05:17 PM

1 Corinthians 15:

"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."

From here

Chris Weimer · 02-14-2005, 01:15 AM

itsamysteryhuh: So if there's sin in heaven, then its not the perfect paradise we are promised, so why bother to go there at all? Is there then no reward for Christianity, but only punishment? And if there can be sin in heaven, why make the death of your life on earth the pinpoint where all is decided?

And where do you get that Satan fell down from Heaven? IIRC, the "fallen angels" were already on earth when they were tempted by women.

itsamysteryhuh · 02-14-2005, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

itsamysteryhuh: So if there's sin in heaven, then its not the perfect paradise we are promised, so why bother to go there at all? Is there then no reward for Christianity, but only punishment? And if there can be sin in heaven, why make the death of your life on earth the pinpoint where all is decided?

Good questions. All I can tell you is that we just don't know. Some references might include Ephesians 5:5, Revelations 21:1 and 22:1-6;15, Galatians 5:21, John 14:2, Hebrews 11:16, Proverbs 6:16.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

And where do you get that Satan fell down from Heaven? IIRC, the "fallen angels" were already on earth when they were tempted by women.

2 Peter 2:4 and Jude (verse 6).

Chris Weimer · 02-15-2005, 12:06 AM

Neither of those verses even mention Satan at all, but merely angels that sinned. If you read Enoch, you will learn that the angels went to Earth and were tempted by human women, and that's where the sin comes from.

Toto · 02-15-2005, 12:13 AM

Quote:

2 Peter 2: 4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment;

[a] 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
[b] 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts into chains of darkness

This doesn't exactly get Satan on to earth.

On Tartarus

Quote:

In Greek mythology, Tartarus was the lowest hell, the place where the Titans (who rebelled against Zeus) were restrained. It is described as being as far below Hades as heaven is high above the earth. As far as we can apply Greek mythology, we can understand that these angels were cast so far down as to be out of sight. Their place of restraint was so far down that one would think they would never be able to crawl out

The commentary at this URL pretends that this passage means that God sent the sinful angels down to earth, which was like a prison to them. This is a pretty bizarre interpretation. Angels as messengers of God are found on earth frequently in the Hebrew Scriptures, and they don't seem to be in the deepest of prisons.

This comment says that these "angels" must be human messengers, not heavenly spirits, and refer back to the false preachers in the first verse.

Truly some Biblical difficulties for the inerrantist here.

rationalOne · 02-15-2005, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

A real spiritual awakening strikes me very similar to the movie Matrix.

That's funny, my transition from christian to atheist felt very much like that. Coming to the conclusion that everything I had believed for so long was just a lie, a very powerful illusion.

jonesg · 02-15-2005, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomeister

Same here. I"m agnostic, but I"ve found Judaism to be more honest than Christianity. I respect the scholarship that often goes with Jewish studies. They really take their bible seriously. I also believe the "prophesies" have not been fulfilled, at least from what I've read by Christians' claims.

You asked if there is a heaven as an other-worldly spiritual paradise. I don't think the Jews thought there was. They were waiting for an earthly kingdom,and still are. The only thing I can remember is something in the New Testament about there being many mansions, etc. I can't remember it exactly.
It's possible that the New Testament is reflecting more of the pagan beliefs of the afterlife to appeal to the gentiles.

Boomeister

I find it interesting that so many jewish alcoholics find freedom from their illness in AA which is based on the teachings of jesus. AA's founders (Bill W and Dr Bob) both called JEsus "the Master" .
But they had to remove that sort of reference from the Big Book of AA in order to make it acceptable to all religions.
Everyone can have valid opinions , but when the choice is reduced to life or death ?. They do have Jewish AA meetings in NYC.

I had a JEwish partner for 18 yrs, I also find their approach to spirituality more honest, more open to possibilities than Christianity.
The Christianity founded by Jesus pretty gives the right answers, but not too many Christians understand what it means or how to apply it in life. Many do though.

jonesg · 02-15-2005, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rationalOne

That's funny, my transition from christian to atheist felt very much like that. Coming to the conclusion that everything I had believed for so long was just a lie, a very powerful illusion.

I believe you, any fundamental change in belief is going to have profound affects. Going back in the other direction can be harder because letting go of self is not as simple as letting self take over.

Its easy to discover people lie, its not as simple to know exactly what the truth is. The possibility is that people lie about the truth but the truth itself remains .

JPD · 02-15-2005, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

I believe you, any fundamental change in belief is going to have profound affects. Going back in the other direction can be harder because letting go of self is not as simple as letting self take over.

Its easy to discover people lie, its not as simple to know exactly what the truth is. The possibility is that people lie about the truth but the truth itself remains .

You make 'self' sound very simple, yet it is still self that you 'see' 'God' through. You can let go of self no more than anyone else can - self remains whether you like it or not. Negating self is the biggest ego trip of all.

If the definition of truth is defined as that which has no rational explanation and is invisible, but which "exists" (but only when you believe in it) and controls everything, but for which absolutely no evidence exists and which cannot be demonstrated to actually "be" in any form, then that "truth" will remain forever.

jonesg · 02-15-2005, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPD

You make 'self' sound very simple, yet it is still self that you 'see' 'God' through. You can let go of self no more than anyone else can - self remains whether you like it or not. Negating self is the biggest ego trip of all.

If the definition of truth is defined as that which has no rational explanation and is invisible, but which "exists" (but only when you believe in it) and controls everything, but for which absolutely no evidence exists and which cannot be demonstrated to actually "be" in any form, then that "truth" will remain forever.

Nope, when ego controls self, then self will not see God because it thinks it IS god.

Negating self is greatest ego deflating process anyone may do.
Seeing that truth is impossible when ego is in control, it will twist truth and make it look as though empowering ego is a humble thing.
It produces statements which have no rational "Negating self is the biggest ego trip of all".

"whosoever follows in my path, let him deny himself...."
Easier said than done, even if you know how to do it.

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02-13-2005, 05:17 PM	#11
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	1 Corinthians 15: "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." From here

02-14-2005, 01:15 AM	#12
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	itsamysteryhuh: So if there's sin in heaven, then its not the perfect paradise we are promised, so why bother to go there at all? Is there then no reward for Christianity, but only punishment? And if there can be sin in heaven, why make the death of your life on earth the pinpoint where all is decided? And where do you get that Satan fell down from Heaven? IIRC, the "fallen angels" were already on earth when they were tempted by women.

02-15-2005, 12:06 AM	#14
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Neither of those verses even mention Satan at all, but merely angels that sinned. If you read Enoch, you will learn that the angels went to Earth and were tempted by human women, and that's where the sin comes from.

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