Mr Carcer

After reading some of the threads in this forum (specifically the one about a hell of eternal punishment not being mentioned in the bible), I began to wonder if there is anywhere in the bible where believers are promised eternal life after death. I began to wonder if the New Testament promised an otherworldly heaven for its believers.

If the punishment for unrepentant non-believers is death and not hell, then it may be reasonable to assume the promise of eternal life means eternal physical life and not eternal spiritual life. In other words, if the wages of sin is death then those who are forgiven their sins should not die.

Is the paradise promised to repentant believers an otherworldly heaven or is it the establishment of the earthly kingdom ruled by Christ as mentioned in the book of revelations? If my assumption about repentant believers is correct then the notion of a spiritual reward of eternal life in an otherworldly heaven becomes meaningless. The true promise of the bible is that repentant believers will not die and the paradise they are promised is an earthly one ruled by Christ.

Parallels between the promises of the New Testament and the stories of the Old Testament springs to mind: especially the flood story. Just as God promised Noah he would live through God's wrath if he followed specific instructions, the New Testament promises that those who follow specific instructions will also live through God's wrath.

Imagine being a Jew in Israel 2000 years ago. Heathen foreigners occupy your country. You are promised that if you follow specific instructions that God will destroy these heathens and sinners and your kingdom will last forever, you will not die, and all the faithful who died before you will be released from Sheol to also live forever in this eternal kingdom. You are promised that the messiah will rule this kingdom of the faithful. Here we see the establishment of an earthly paradise not an otherworldly heaven; we see eternal life on earth not life after death in an otherworldly heaven; and we see the messiah ruling this earthly kingdom.

To put it another way God is promising to destroy all your enemies and give you eternal physical life in an earthly paradise ruled by Christ if you follow specific instructions set in the New Testament. The concept of heaven and hell becomes meaningless in this situation. The faithful who died before the arrival of Christ don't ascend to heaven, they ascend to the earthly paradise, and those who are alive and faithful will not die but live forever in the Eden (earthly paradise) ruled by Christ.

The problems with these promises (aside from the obvious moral dilemma caused by all the unfaithful being massacred) are that believers still die, Eden isn't here, and the faithful dead haven't been released from Sheol. To rectify these problems Christianity distorted these promises and invented heaven, hell, and the second coming.

Early Christians had to proselytise to Gentiles because Jews knew that Jesus could not possible be the messiah. Jewish people knew that Christianity was based around twisting and distorting the promises in the bible. Gentiles didn't have this knowledge though and were therefore more susceptible to the lies of these early Christians. Early Christians turned the New Testament into the world’s most popular piece of religious propaganda. The New Testament was written in Greek to appeal to the Gentiles and to distance itself from Judaism. They demonised the Jews because the Jews were the biggest threat to their religion.

Because of this I firmly believe that Christianity is founded upon a gross misunderstanding of Judaism. Jews don't consider Jesus the messiah because he didn't fulfil the promises and requirements of the messiah. Jews don't distort the promises of the bible so that Jesus will appear to be the saviour. They accept that he wasn't. For this reason I also believe that Judaism is more honest than Christianity.

Christians face a crisis. They must either continue propagating lies to remain faithful to Christ or they must choose honesty and abandon their belief in Jesus, eternal punishment in hell, and the reward of eternal life in heaven. Those who are faithful to God and the bible will choose the latter.

Before I finish this post I want to clarify a few points. I am an atheist and as an atheist I do not support any religion. My argument here is not that everyone should seek to become Jewish, but that Judaism is a more honest representation of the bible. My argument is that if one must believe in the bible and the god of the bible, Judaism is the only choice that makes sense

Sign Related

I'd rather not be in God's hypocritical dream or God's hypocritical paradise because it is perverse as the very abomination of desolation.

I'd rather go unto my own paradise any day, and have commanded God, in whole (hint: "Let us make man in our image"), unto the depth of hell for being the hypocrites and unprofitable servant.

Boomeister

Same here. I"m agnostic, but I"ve found Judaism to be more honest than Christianity. I respect the scholarship that often goes with Jewish studies. They really take their bible seriously. I also believe the "prophesies" have not been fulfilled, at least from what I've read by Christians' claims.

You asked if there is a heaven as an other-worldly spiritual paradise. I don't think the Jews thought there was. They were waiting for an earthly kingdom,and still are. The only thing I can remember is something in the New Testament about there being many mansions, etc. I can't remember it exactly.
It's possible that the New Testament is reflecting more of the pagan beliefs of the afterlife to appeal to the gentiles.


Boomeister

Chris Weimer

Christianity is the mythology based upon the mythologies of Judaism.

Chris Weimer

Heaven is also illogically fabricated. Why is there sin on Earth? Because man made the choice to sin. Why did God give us this choice? Because he loves us. So, why isn't there sin in heaven then? Isn't it true by that thinking that either God doesn't love us in Heaven (i.e. he took our choice away from us when we entered) or that Heaven isn't perfect anyway. If there can be a sinless heaven, why can't there be a sinless Earth. All of a sudden, all of the PoE apologists are dead wrong.

AdamZ

OK, here's what I remember from elementary school (about 6 years ago), and a bit of reading:
There is no biblical support of an afterlife. The messiah is a human king, descended from king David. The kingdom of the messiah is definitely supposed to be here on earth. However, there's some sort of midrash* which says that the righteous will go to "gan eden," the garden of eden, after they die. I can't remember what happens to them (those in GoE) when the dead are supposed to be raised when the messiah comes. The garden of eden may also be a metaphor for the perfect state the world will be in during the reign of the messiah. As for sinners, there are two schools of thought. Either your soul gets wiped out immediately, or gets recycled. It might also have to wait around for a while, then get wiped out :huh:.

It's worth noting, however, that a lot of modern Jews probably do believe in heaven, likely because of Christian cultural influence. Again, it's been about 6 years since I was taught this stuff, so my memory's not going to be perfect, and some of it may have been simplified for me.

* A midrash is a commentary or explanation on the bible. For example, the story of Lillith never actually appears in Genesis. The story is a midrash, although I can't remember what it was supposed to explain.

jonesg

'My Fathers house has many mansions.'
'The Kingdom of Heaven is within.'
God dwells in Heaven, so it's within that a person finds God.

Not finding God, life slowly decays into a personal hell.
It takes 30 or 40 yrs for that to develop, that was my experience.
The only thing I hoped for was death after life.

A real spiritual awakening strikes me very similar to the movie Matrix.
Almost an alternative reality which was there all along ,but not experienced. My spiritual awakening was somewhat like an acid trip, if you've ever done that. A roller coaster ride which went on for 2 yrs until I calmed down and wondered what H was THAT?
I heard a guy in AA describe his awakening as " the God bomb going off'.

Anat

jonesg, don't worry about us so much. There are people here who have been without your or anyone else's deity for quite a few decades and are doing fine. I am only at 2+ decades, so this might not count for you, but I am much happier than in my believing phase. Heaven/paradise is something people can create for themselves on earth. (Oh, and I don't do acid. I like my brain too much.)

Sensei Meela

Er, no; if you meant the Hebrew Bible, you'd be closer -- but then there's Daniel 12:2 to consider: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt." Note, of course, that it doesn't say "all" who sleep in the ground, only "many." So Jewish escathology had, at least by the time of Daniel, developed some form of 'afterlife.'

First, a word of incredulity...I had considered myself something of a lurker...but you've only gotten in two posts in the 2 years since you've registered?! That, sir, is some will-power you possess!

Now then, since you imply all three in some way, I'm not sure what you're objecting to: are you suggesting there is no heaven? that heaven is not paradise? that heaven is not a spiritual paradise?

As is my understanding, "heaven" refers to the Kingdom of God which shall, upon Judgement Day, be made on Earth; the Earth shall be made new and righteous, as God destroys all unrighteousness in it. Believers will live in the Kingdom of God forever, but since the flesh is, itself, unrighteous, they will be made new with Spiritual bodies. Unbelievers will not live, will not be made new; their bodies will be destroyed with all other unrighteousness, a punishment which they can never escape from.

"Heaven," then, is both a place and a state of being: it is the Earth, in a condition of total righteousness -- it is "paradise."
I don't follow; how are these concepts "meaningless?" [You ostensibly explain in the following, so hold that thought] Do you mean to say that, if you are faithful to God, you will not die? No such promise is made in the Bible, Hebrew or Christian -- rather the opposite [Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"]. The promise is that the belivers shall not face eternal death, as do the unbelievers; the believers shall live again, and live forever.

What do you mean that "Eden isn't here, and the faithful dead haven't been released from Sheol."? That it and they are not here now? Well, of course they aren't! Judgement Day has not arrived.
Careful now; do you mean Orthodox Jews, Messianic Jews or the whole lot? For Messianic Jews accept Yeshua as the Son of God, and I think they make a compelling case (er, internally, at least). Were I to be religious, and follow an Abrahamic religion, I'd likely be a Messianic Jew.

itsamysteryhuh

Know ALL the variables involved do you? Apparently there must have been sin in Heaven at some point in time.....remember Satan? Seems there's too many why/if statements in your quote above to draw full conclusions from.