Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 05-04-2013, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

...
Modern Jesus Mythicists do not detect traces of the nature of a true God in holy writings but reject everything that suggests that Jesus the Christ is part of some sort of divine plan of the God of the Jewish scriptures. They do not attempt to reason out the sources for ideas found in the OT & NT. They cannot even fathom the concept of how such a myth could have started in the first place. Even Marxists have thought this out, who were heavily influenced by Bruno Bauer, but JMs are ignorant of their research.

If he actually existed, they always imagine that he was exactly as portrayed in the NT. By rejecting wholesale any sort of HJ one can imagine, they have eliminated their secret fear that the redemption plan and the morals that go with it might be real. JMs are afraid of the NT Jesus. So, they can not then be considered "gnostics." ...

:constern02:

This is the Christian apologists' view of JMs, but doe not describe any mythicist or poster here except perhaps aa5874 - who makes more noise but is not representative of anyone but himself.

What you say about me is completely unsubstantiated and of zero value.

DC Hindley does not represent modern mythicists.

Iskander · 05-04-2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

:constern02:

This is the Christian apologists' view of JMs, but doe not describe any mythicist or poster here except perhaps aa5874 - who makes more noise but is not representative of anyone but himself.

What you say about me is completely unsubstantiated and of zero value.

DC Hindley does not represent modern mythicists.

I do

Clivedurdle · 05-04-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

What is it that you found interesting in the BBC programme?

A comment about Christianities?

And that they are very very different to what the xianities we have now, which is in many ways a very bowdlerised form, but has fascinating clues to its origins, like glass darkly, parables...

Different groups have brought out the various flavours, like the Quakers.

Iskander · 05-04-2013, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

What is it that you found interesting in the BBC programme?

A comment about Christianities?

And that they are very very different to what the xianities we have now, which is in many ways a very bowdlerised form, but has fascinating clues to its origins, like glass darkly, parables...

Different groups have brought out the various flavours, like the Quakers.

Is the physical world evil? This Gnostic axiom is moronic and very unattractive.

The demiurge god is an incompressible addition to the concept of god.

Gnostic knowledge is a phoney knowledge. I am glad that those charlatans lost the war.

Dali was a catholic after the victory of General Franco and a surrealist rebel in his youth.

mountainman · 05-04-2013, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Gnosticism
Duration: 43 minutes
First broadcast: Thursday 02 May 2013
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss Gnosticism, a sect associated with early Christianity. The Gnostics divided the universe into two domains: the visible world and the spiritual one. They believed that a special sort of knowledge, or gnosis, would enable them to escape the evils of the physical world and allow them access to the higher spiritual realm. The Gnostics were regarded as heretics by many of the Church Fathers, but their influence was important in defining the course of early Christianity. A major archaeological discovery in Egypt in the 1940s, when a large cache of Gnostic texts were found buried in an earthenware jar, enabled scholars to learn considerably more about their beliefs.

With:

Martin Palmer
Director of the International Consultancy on Religion, Education, and Culture

Caroline Humfress
Reader in History at Birkbeck College, University of London

Alastair Logan
Honorary University Fellow of the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter

Producer: Thomas Morris

This was very thought provoking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4rhz

FWIW some very rough notes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTES

Seth is the 3rd son of Adam and Eve.
Cain and Abel had not worked out well.

Hermes
Zoroasta
Buddha (when trad gets to China)

attacked by Plotinus

gnosis = knowledge

answer for the perennial philosophy

source of life "inexpr

Od God of OT was demiurge
real god unknowable

Divine spark is ina tomb of the physical world

Gnostic mass movement of 2nd century
Manichaeaism is a gnosticism

No one single creatrion myth theme

structure of divine realm
contruction of cosmos
firt generations of humans

place urself into the myth - experience
gnosis as enlightenment

gnostics redeem ignorance
saving via knowledge

Myth of Structure:

Unknowable father,
emanations
tertullain = heaven is an appartment block
final emmanation = Sophia

Sophia created Demiurge

LXX is a story created by the evil demiurge
LXX is subverted

Humans are created as above the demiurge.

Gospel of Philip: "lighting light within oneself"

Christian gnosticism appears as sects via IRENAEUS
Claimed they were true christians with true gnosis (HS?)
Small groups expanded after 3rd century DUALISTIC Manichaeanism

Did not have conventional canon but secretly discussed gnostic myth.
Like Philosophical schools of Plotinus and others

Justin Marty has his own Christian philosophical school

All over Roman Empire
Alexandria spread to Rome

Valentinians
Keen on ritual and sacraments (baptism was Jewsih Christians took it over)
Lived an ascetic life given passwords at death via ritual and sacraments

Seven steps not one

SALVATION

The Core different from the then christian notion.
Through knowledge one can fully understand who and what you are.
Does not involve guilt (like chreistian).
Augustine introduced the concept of "original sin"

Remeeding from sins (Adam and Eve).
Need an awakening.
Like a drunk waking up = liberation.
Liberation from demiurge god and his world.

What has been entaught entraps you.

ETHICS

Gnosticism is a solitary thing
But did we have Historical communities
l;ived study worship ritual activities

Description is provided by opponents

No structure, no teaching
Draw straws for leadership - Tertullian describes community practice.

Bishop should be in control says Tertullian

Many questions perennial through
TEN COMMANDMENTS via demiurge
Jealous god
Humans are better

Demiurge (is a miscarraige) created by Sophia
Material existence created.

Was there an established orthodox church?

No king till Constantine.

Bishops and Deacons structure hier emerged 2nd century

Developed counter stategy against gnosticism

The orthodox were the Biggest sect?

Pattern of othodoxy prevails:

1) Secret gospel and revelations implied creed of god, Jesus, resurrection
2) Canon of scrioptuere involving NT and OT against gnostic material
3) Appeal to tradition to Apostolic tradition

DEMIURGE = EVIL GOD = God of Old Testament

Gnostics drew from a collapse of old traditions
Nobody particularly believed in Zeus or Jupiter **********
Plato destroyed the Greek myths by positing spiritual and
material world but not seeing them as good and bad
but rather superior or inferior

Plotinus agitated at Gnostics for saying materuial world is evil
He says it is beautiful
Mythraism, Sybil, Isis, Zoroaster,
Cosmopolitan world of enormous variety.
Christianity was just another experimental cult.

IRENAEUS
Gnostic threat - they dont keep to themselves
Dangerous: they are already inside the church
Enlightenment does not need institutional church anymore

Tertullian and Irenaeus say that the gnostics
called Christian bishops "waterless canals".

This is a threat, problem.

gJohn has gnostic elements?

EXCLUDED Gospels NHC

"Good News" = Gospel

gEgyptians: Seth
gJudas:
gThomas: Sayings collection
gMary: reveklation dialogue, Peter criticise Mary
gTruth: Valentinian
gPhilip: Valentinian sacraments

Valentinus Alexandria to Riome almost Bishop
Founder of sect Valentianism: Sophia given Platonic makeover
Alot of texts written 2nd century
Florinus story by Irenaeus

REACTION to NHC

Revolutionary.
Gnostics authors other than opponents
They questioned traditional orthodox
gMary preluded NHC

Serioius questioning whether conventional Christianity has whole picture

Gospel of Thomas more original than synoptic gospels?
Gnostic element is significant

Cat among pigeons

Visionary and poetic quality of gnostic literature
Way to understand - visionary knowledge

gMary woke scholaraship
NHC has comp0ekey changed ideas of early Christianities

GNOSTIC/Judasim

Powerful Judaic gnosticism
plays with myths of Judasism
sect of Judaism?
Metaphysical rebellion against Judaism?
No Jewish gniostic texts have been discovered

MANI

Spreads to China

Gnosticism suppressed and wiped out by 5th century
but bubbles up later ....

Who were the gnostics?

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 05-04-2013, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Modern Jesus Mythicists ... cannot even fathom the concept of how such a myth could have started in the first place...

There are exceptions to this statement.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

maryhelena · 05-04-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Modern Jesus Mythicists do not detect traces of the nature of a true God in holy writings but reject everything that suggests that Jesus the Christ is part of some sort of divine plan of the God of the Jewish scriptures. They do not attempt to reason out the sources for ideas found in the OT & NT. They cannot even fathom the concept of how such a myth could have started in the first place. Even Marxists have thought this out, who were heavily influenced by Bruno Bauer, but JMs are ignorant of their research.

If he actually existed, they always imagine that he was exactly as portrayed in the NT. By rejecting wholesale any sort of HJ one can imagine, they have eliminated their secret fear that the redemption plan and the morals that go with it might be real. JMs are afraid of the NT Jesus. So, they can not then be considered "gnostics."

Ironically, this makes Jesus Mythers no different than the conservative Christians that they despise.

DCH

David, your post simply amazes me! With all the years behind you being an observer of posts by the ahistoricist/mythicists on this forum - I can't get my mind around how you could write what you have done in this post...

Yes, there are many JM theories out there - as there are theories from the HJ side. Lack of *reason* on the JM side? That's a silly accusation to make - it can be thrown right back at the HJ side. i.e. it adds nothing constructive to the debate.

I sense frustration in your post!

David, the MJ debate is not going away. On the contrary it will, like a rolling stone, gather more *moss* along the way. That is the reality of the HJ/MJ debate - it is not going to go away...

As to your comments re "secret fear that the redemption plan and the morals that go with it might be real. JMs are afraid of the NT Jesus. " I really don't know what to say....I'm simply speechless.....

Chili · 05-04-2013, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The ancient gnostics believed in a more spiritual Christ and thought of "flesh" as corrupt.

Freke and Gandy are essentially modern neo-gnostics.

You have to qualify flesh here Toto that has nothing to do with the body but the earthly-ness of man as human. So it refers to the human condition of man but not to the man. The danger here is to see humans as basically evil and not redeemable either and that is most certainly wrong.

mountainman · 05-04-2013, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It depends on the mythicist, and on the critic.

I happen to agree with this statement. There are multiple HJ positions and multiple MJ positions.
If we use the RG Price spectrum approach listing 4 HJ positions and 4 MJ positions there are
a number of relationships between them.

Here is a chart.

The main seven of eight positions may be captioned as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

As I keep trying to explain, there are mythicists who are pro-religion. Robert M.Price loves the Episcopal Church. Acharya S thinks highly of nature based religions.

And there are mythicists who think that a historical Jesus could be a better argument against Christianity, such as Richard Carrier.

Your attempts to link mythicism to anti-Christian sentiment rather than an evaluation of the evidence have been a continual failure.

Well, what I think or what mythicists think is not as relevant as the perceptions of the critics.

I wonder if AA still has me on ignore?

Quote:

In the minds of the critics, the belief that Jesus was myth is most closely associated with anti-religious secularism, not with gnosticism.

Are we to assume in the OP that the critics are the orthodox HJ brigade?

But what are we to assume is "anti-religious secularism"?

Can someone translate this term?

Quote:

Secularism is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and the right to freedom from governmental imposition of religion upon the people within a state that is neutral on matters of belief.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 05-05-2013, 04:57 AM

Gnostic heretics??? Are there gnostics who were orthodox?

Jeffrey

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05-05-2013, 04:57 AM	#30
Jeffrey Gibson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,058	Gnostic heretics??? Are there gnostics who were orthodox? Jeffrey

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