Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-02-2013, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Gnosticism
Duration: 43 minutes
First broadcast: Thursday 02 May 2013
Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss Gnosticism, a sect associated with early Christianity. The Gnostics divided the universe into two domains: the visible world and the spiritual one. They believed that a special sort of knowledge, or gnosis, would enable them to escape the evils of the physical world and allow them access to the higher spiritual realm. The Gnostics were regarded as heretics by many of the Church Fathers, but their influence was important in defining the course of early Christianity. A major archaeological discovery in Egypt in the 1940s, when a large cache of Gnostic texts were found buried in an earthenware jar, enabled scholars to learn considerably more about their beliefs.

With:

Martin Palmer
Director of the International Consultancy on Religion, Education, and Culture

Caroline Humfress
Reader in History at Birkbeck College, University of London

Alastair Logan
Honorary University Fellow of the Department of Theology and Religion at the University of Exeter

Producer: Thomas Morris

This was very thought provoking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4rhz

mountainman · 05-03-2013, 07:04 AM

Good question.

I will listen to this over the weekend.

Thanks.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

ApostateAbe · 05-03-2013, 01:53 PM

I don't see much of a connection. What do you take to be the connection between the ancient gnostics and the perceptions of modern mythicists?

Toto · 05-03-2013, 01:56 PM

The ancient gnostics believed in a more spiritual Christ and thought of "flesh" as corrupt.

Freke and Gandy are essentially modern neo-gnostics.

ApostateAbe · 05-03-2013, 02:02 PM

I know mythicists have drawn connections between themselves and the ancient gnostics. I don't think this connection registers in the minds of the critics. The critics tend to think mythicists are just secularists opposed to the Christian religion, which really does seem to describe a good number of them.

Toto · 05-03-2013, 02:28 PM

It depends on the mythicist, and on the critic.

As I keep trying to explain, there are mythicists who are pro-religion. Robert M.Price loves the Episcopal Church. Acharya S thinks highly of nature based religions.

And there are mythicists who think that a historical Jesus could be a better argument against Christianity, such as Richard Carrier.

Your attempts to link mythicism to anti-Christian sentiment rather than an evaluation of the evidence have been a continual failure.

Clivedurdle · 05-03-2013, 02:52 PM

Is there a typo above?

ApostateAbe · 05-03-2013, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It depends on the mythicist, and on the critic.

As I keep trying to explain, there are mythicists who are pro-religion. Robert M.Price loves the Episcopal Church. Acharya S thinks highly of nature based religions.

And there are mythicists who think that a historical Jesus could be a better argument against Christianity, such as Richard Carrier.

Your attempts to link mythicism to anti-Christian sentiment rather than an evaluation of the evidence have been a continual failure.

Well, what I think or what mythicists think is not as relevant as the perceptions of the critics. In the minds of the critics, the belief that Jesus was myth is most closely associated with anti-religious secularism, not with gnosticism. Do you blame them? Jesus mythicism has been a component in the anti-religious media, including docugandas such as Zeitgeist, The God Who Wasn't There, even Bill Maher's Religulous. Two of the leading proponents of Jesus Mythicism have made their careers as leaders in anti-religious secularism (Frank Zindler and Richard Carrier). Suppose you think this is wrong and the perception is unjustified--well, it is a popular perception all the same, which is my only relevant point. There is no obvious connection between mythicism and gnosticism, especially not in the minds of the critics.

ApostateAbe · 05-03-2013, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Is there a typo above?

Toto was referring to me, not to you, if that is what you are concerned about.

ApostateAbe · 05-03-2013, 04:27 PM

By the way, my "continual failure" is expressed in this thread:

Relationship between opposition to Christianity and advocacy of mythical-Jesus theory

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05-03-2013, 07:04 AM	#2
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Good question. I will listen to this over the weekend. Thanks. εὐδαιμονία \| eudaimonia

05-03-2013, 01:53 PM	#3
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	I don't see much of a connection. What do you take to be the connection between the ancient gnostics and the perceptions of modern mythicists?

05-03-2013, 01:56 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The ancient gnostics believed in a more spiritual Christ and thought of "flesh" as corrupt. Freke and Gandy are essentially modern neo-gnostics.

05-03-2013, 02:02 PM	#5
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	I know mythicists have drawn connections between themselves and the ancient gnostics. I don't think this connection registers in the minds of the critics. The critics tend to think mythicists are just secularists opposed to the Christian religion, which really does seem to describe a good number of them.

05-03-2013, 02:28 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It depends on the mythicist, and on the critic. As I keep trying to explain, there are mythicists who are pro-religion. Robert M.Price loves the Episcopal Church. Acharya S thinks highly of nature based religions. And there are mythicists who think that a historical Jesus could be a better argument against Christianity, such as Richard Carrier. Your attempts to link mythicism to anti-Christian sentiment rather than an evaluation of the evidence have been a continual failure.

05-03-2013, 02:52 PM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is there a typo above?

05-03-2013, 04:27 PM	#10
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	By the way, my "continual failure" is expressed in this thread: Relationship between opposition to Christianity and advocacy of mythical-Jesus theory

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