Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Yuri Kuchinsky · 11-02-2003, 12:09 PM

Or, "Some tall tales about the Aramaic gospels."

by Yuri Kuchinsky

___________________

Greetings, all,

Professional NT scholars have told us many interesting stories about the gospels' origins. Here is one such tale that explains why the ancient Aramaic manuscripts should be ignored, and only the Greek gospels should be studied. So this story explains quite well why 99% of our modern New Testament scholars study the Greek gospels only...

THE BORDERLINE TRANSLATION SERVICE!

As we all know, Jesus came from Galilee, which is right next door to Syria. While, in his time, in Syria they did speak the dialects of Aramaic very similar to that of Galilee, yet it is completely impossible that anything of the original teachings of Jesus might have seeped north across that border!

It is true, of course, that the ancient Syriac Church always prided itself on having received its tradition directly from Israel. But, you see, they could never have received their tradition of Jesus' teachings from Israel in Aramaic... because of the special Borderline Translation Service! Yes, Mr. Greek Translator had to always stand there at the border with Galilee to direct traffic!

So let's suppose that an early group of Aramaic-speaking missionaries of Jesus is on its way into Syria to spread the gospel (for some such early preaching in Damascus, see Acts 9:19). Or maybe they are fleeing to Syria to escape the Roman legions. So Mr. Greek Translator would always welcome them at the border, and he says, "OK, so let me now translate into Greek the message that you're spreading... We'll write it down here for you in Greek and, when you get to your Aramaic cousins in Damascus, some other Greek Translator guy will translate it for you back into Aramaic."

And they would reply to him, "Sure 'nuf! Our Aramaic-speaking cousins in Damascus can, of course, understand us just fine in any case, but since the scholars of the 20th century have decided to put you up here, in your guard post, then you might as well just do your thing. Who's paying your salary, anyways? Is it the Society of Biblical Literature?"

All the best,

Yuri.

Haran · 11-02-2003, 12:20 PM

Yuri,

I always have a hard time finding that website with the Syriac NT. It seems buried down in a chain of links. Do you have the link?

Anyway, I am curious to know something that I feel would give me a better perspective on both the Syriac and the Greek. I have been reading through Mark in the Greek and ran across something I found interesting in Mark 10:37 and 40. I'm curious what word John and James use for "left" (as opposed to "right") in the Syriac at this point and what word Jesus used for "left" in his reply . Can you link me to it? Where can I find out about variants in the Syriac version itself? Is there a critical edition?

Finally, these are just thoughts coming out... How does Codex Bezae fit into all your theories. Do you look at its text favorably? Do you feel that it is close to the Syriac? I have noticed how Codex Bezae reorders wording all over the place, but I have not figured out what language this is due to... It seems like the word order changes were made to make it easier to read in Greek. Do you feel the word order in some way more acurately reflects the Syriac or the Latin which is found on the facing pages of the Codex?

Sorry for the rambling post. I'm just trying to feel out more of your ideas and opinions. ...to see what you might know that I might have overlooked along the way since I do not discount the possibility that at least one of the gospels might have originally been written in Aramaic...

offa · 11-02-2003, 12:54 PM

Yuri wrote,

THE BORDERLINE TRANSLATION SERVICE!

As we all know, Jesus came from Galilee, which is right next door to
Syria. While, in his time, in Syria they did speak the dialects of
Aramaic very similar to that of Galilee, yet it is completely
impossible that anything of the original teachings of Jesus might have
seeped north across that border!

Offa, I cut this from Josephus,

Ant 14-158 And seeing that Hyrcanus was of a slow and slothful
temper, he made Phasaelus, his eldest son, governor of Jerusalem, and
of the places that were about it, but committed Galileee to Herod, his
next son, who was then a very young man, for he was but fifteen years
of age;

My question is this, "Did Jesus come from the same Galilee that Herod
was committed to govern?"

BTW, backtracking Herod's age from being about 70 when he died makes him
about 27 when he was made governor of Galilee.

Thanks, Offa

Yuri Kuchinsky · 11-03-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haran
Yuri,

I always have a hard time finding that website with the Syriac NT. It seems buried down in a chain of links. Do you have the link?

Which one do you mean, Haran? The OS Matthew is here,

http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/aramaic.htm

Quote:

Anyway, I am curious to know something that I feel would give me a better perspective on both the Syriac and the Greek. I have been reading through Mark in the Greek and ran across something I found interesting in Mark 10:37 and 40. I'm curious what word John and James use for "left" (as opposed to "right") in the Syriac at this point and what word Jesus used for "left" in his reply . Can you link me to it?

"Right" in Mark 10:37 = ymynk (pronounced as "yamiynkh"; root = ymyn)

And the same root is also used in Mark 10:40.

Quote:

Where can I find out about variants in the Syriac version itself? Is there a critical edition?

See,

The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/aramgosp.htm

Quote:

Finally, these are just thoughts coming out... How does Codex Bezae fit into all your theories. Do you look at its text favorably? Do you feel that it is close to the Syriac?

It looks like you may have missed my recent article where I refer to Bezae quite a lot,

"Earliest Gospel MSS make it all clear -- it's a Fraud!" (October 4, 2003),

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=64529

Quote:

I have noticed how Codex Bezae reorders wording all over the place,

Or perhaps it preserves the earlier wording?

Quote:

but I have not figured out what language this is due to...

Many scholars have referred to numerous Semitisms in Bezae.

Quote:

It seems like the word order changes were made to make it easier to read in Greek. Do you feel the word order in some way more acurately reflects the Syriac or the Latin which is found on the facing pages of the Codex?

Both the Greek and Latin sides of C. Bezae often seem to reflect Aramaic (and/or Hebrew) grammar and vocabulary.

Quote:

Sorry for the rambling post. I'm just trying to feel out more of your ideas and opinions. ...to see what you might know that I might have overlooked along the way since I do not discount the possibility that at least one of the gospels might have originally been written in Aramaic...

Please read my long article about the earliest MSS. Some comments would be nice.

Regards,

Yuri.

judge · 11-03-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Haran
Yuri,

I always have a hard time finding that website with the Syriac NT. It seems buried down in a chain of links. Do you have the link?

If you want to have a look at the peshitta, which is the only aramaic version of the the NT ever actually used in the the liturgy of a Christian church, you can find an aramaic/english interlinear currently being done here.

www.peshitta.org

or you can find the peshitto (which is an edited peshitta) online here

www.peshitta.com

Bear in mind that the peshitta has been used for as long as we know by Christians in their services whilst the Old syriac was never used in any services and is not regared as the original by the Aramaic speaking Church of the East.

all the best

Yuri Kuchinsky · 11-03-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa
Yuri wrote,

THE BORDERLINE TRANSLATION SERVICE!

As we all know, Jesus came from Galilee, which is right next door to
Syria. While, in his time, in Syria they did speak the dialects of
Aramaic very similar to that of Galilee, yet it is completely
impossible that anything of the original teachings of Jesus might have
seeped north across that border!

Offa, I cut this from Josephus,

Ant 14-158 And seeing that Hyrcanus was of a slow and slothful
temper, he made Phasaelus, his eldest son, governor of Jerusalem, and
of the places that were about it, but committed Galileee to Herod, his
next son, who was then a very young man, for he was but fifteen years
of age;

My question is this, "Did Jesus come from the same Galilee that Herod
was committed to govern?"

BTW, backtracking Herod's age from being about 70 when he died makes him
about 27 when he was made governor of Galilee.

Thanks, Offa

Was there more than one Galilee, Offa? Please try to make some sense...

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky · 11-03-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by judge

Bear in mind that the peshitta has been used for as long as we know by Christians in their services whilst the Old syriac was never used in any services

And how do you know this?

Yuri.

offa · 11-03-2003, 05:13 PM

Was there more than one Galilee, Offa? Please try to make some sense...

Yuri.

Offa,
"Yes, there are more than one Galilee."

Check out my simple website www.josephus-pursuit.com ... it should be on my profile. I am a
construction worker, Viet Nam ERA vet (my claim to fame is standing
guard on Rudolph Hess in Spandau, 1968), and an abuser of Old
Milwaukee. Also, I read Scripture. And, I did not graduate from one
high school.
Flavius Josephus has taught me that Egypt, Mt. Sinai, and Masada
have more than one identity. As a matter of fact, Mount Sinai and
Masada are the same location. Try Alexandrium (not in your Galilee).

Thanks,
offa

Haran · 11-07-2003, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Yuri Kuchinsky
Which one do you mean, Haran? The OS Matthew is here, http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/aramaic.htm

No. The one in the actual aramaic. I think it's on some college website...

Quote:

"Right" in Mark 10:37 = ymynk (pronounced as "yamiynkh"; root = ymyn)

And the same root is also used in Mark 10:40.

I looked this up. "ymyn" is definitely the Aramaic word for "right". But what is the word used for "left" in both mark 10:37 and 10:40? Is it the same in both places?

Check your PMs, as I've asked some of these questions there. Feel free to email me.

Radcliffe Emerson · 11-07-2003, 07:10 AM

Some Orthodox Jews say the primary reason they never accepted Jesus' story as a messiah story, is the concepts attributed to Jesus are Greek, not Hebrew.
So, yes, the original writings probably were Greek, because Jesus is essentially a Greek legend to begin with.

11-02-2003, 12:09 PM	#1
Yuri Kuchinsky Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,146	translated from the Greek? Or, "Some tall tales about the Aramaic gospels." by Yuri Kuchinsky ___________________ Greetings, all, Professional NT scholars have told us many interesting stories about the gospels' origins. Here is one such tale that explains why the ancient Aramaic manuscripts should be ignored, and only the Greek gospels should be studied. So this story explains quite well why 99% of our modern New Testament scholars study the Greek gospels only... THE BORDERLINE TRANSLATION SERVICE! As we all know, Jesus came from Galilee, which is right next door to Syria. While, in his time, in Syria they did speak the dialects of Aramaic very similar to that of Galilee, yet it is completely impossible that anything of the original teachings of Jesus might have seeped north across that border! It is true, of course, that the ancient Syriac Church always prided itself on having received its tradition directly from Israel. But, you see, they could never have received their tradition of Jesus' teachings from Israel in Aramaic... because of the special Borderline Translation Service! Yes, Mr. Greek Translator had to always stand there at the border with Galilee to direct traffic! So let's suppose that an early group of Aramaic-speaking missionaries of Jesus is on its way into Syria to spread the gospel (for some such early preaching in Damascus, see Acts 9:19). Or maybe they are fleeing to Syria to escape the Roman legions. So Mr. Greek Translator would always welcome them at the border, and he says, "OK, so let me now translate into Greek the message that you're spreading... We'll write it down here for you in Greek and, when you get to your Aramaic cousins in Damascus, some other Greek Translator guy will translate it for you back into Aramaic." And they would reply to him, "Sure 'nuf! Our Aramaic-speaking cousins in Damascus can, of course, understand us just fine in any case, but since the scholars of the 20th century have decided to put you up here, in your guard post, then you might as well just do your thing. Who's paying your salary, anyways? Is it the Society of Biblical Literature?" All the best, Yuri.

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11-02-2003, 12:20 PM	#2
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Yuri, I always have a hard time finding that website with the Syriac NT. It seems buried down in a chain of links. Do you have the link? Anyway, I am curious to know something that I feel would give me a better perspective on both the Syriac and the Greek. I have been reading through Mark in the Greek and ran across something I found interesting in Mark 10:37 and 40. I'm curious what word John and James use for "left" (as opposed to "right") in the Syriac at this point and what word Jesus used for "left" in his reply . Can you link me to it? Where can I find out about variants in the Syriac version itself? Is there a critical edition? Finally, these are just thoughts coming out... How does Codex Bezae fit into all your theories. Do you look at its text favorably? Do you feel that it is close to the Syriac? I have noticed how Codex Bezae reorders wording all over the place, but I have not figured out what language this is due to... It seems like the word order changes were made to make it easier to read in Greek. Do you feel the word order in some way more acurately reflects the Syriac or the Latin which is found on the facing pages of the Codex? Sorry for the rambling post. I'm just trying to feel out more of your ideas and opinions. ...to see what you might know that I might have overlooked along the way since I do not discount the possibility that at least one of the gospels might have originally been written in Aramaic...

11-02-2003, 12:54 PM	#3
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Yuri wrote, THE BORDERLINE TRANSLATION SERVICE! As we all know, Jesus came from Galilee, which is right next door to Syria. While, in his time, in Syria they did speak the dialects of Aramaic very similar to that of Galilee, yet it is completely impossible that anything of the original teachings of Jesus might have seeped north across that border! Offa, I cut this from Josephus, Ant 14-158 And seeing that Hyrcanus was of a slow and slothful temper, he made Phasaelus, his eldest son, governor of Jerusalem, and of the places that were about it, but committed Galileee to Herod, his next son, who was then a very young man, for he was but fifteen years of age; My question is this, "Did Jesus come from the same Galilee that Herod was committed to govern?" BTW, backtracking Herod's age from being about 70 when he died makes him about 27 when he was made governor of Galilee. Thanks, Offa

11-03-2003, 05:13 PM	#8
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Was there more than one Galilee, Offa? Please try to make some sense... Yuri. Offa, "Yes, there are more than one Galilee." Check out my simple website www.josephus-pursuit.com ... it should be on my profile. I am a construction worker, Viet Nam ERA vet (my claim to fame is standing guard on Rudolph Hess in Spandau, 1968), and an abuser of Old Milwaukee. Also, I read Scripture. And, I did not graduate from one high school. Flavius Josephus has taught me that Egypt, Mt. Sinai, and Masada have more than one identity. As a matter of fact, Mount Sinai and Masada are the same location. Try Alexandrium (not in your Galilee). Thanks, offa

11-07-2003, 07:10 AM	#10
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	Some Orthodox Jews say the primary reason they never accepted Jesus' story as a messiah story, is the concepts attributed to Jesus are Greek, not Hebrew. So, yes, the original writings probably were Greek, because Jesus is essentially a Greek legend to begin with.

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