mountainman

Dear BC&H researchers,

How I lament that the search for the historical jesus has gone so badly over the last century. We have no results to show other than academic summit meetings over the HJ. Might I be so bold as to suggest we lower our sights somewhat and approach as an exemplary exercise the task of assigning an index of ancient historicity to the two "universal church" figures who go by the names of (Saints) Cosmas and Damien?

Here a starting point (WIKI):

The task, if you are prepared to accept it, is to attempt to establish the historicity (or otherwise) of these two purported historical figures. This pair of either reliable hard working physicians were either alive and active from the third century, or they were not. In comparison to the monumental task of seeking a value of ancient historicity for the historical jesus figure, the task of performing exactly the same assessment for these two Cosmas and Damien should be an easier task, since they are from a later century.

At one end of the historicity scale, if Cosmas and Damien existed, what evidence is available to substantiate this existence, and of what character is the evidence? What monumental and epigraphic evidence exists, etc? At the other end of the historicity scale, what evidence suggests that these two purported historical figures are the literary inventions of a later century, who in fact did not exist at all in the third century?

My claim is that this exercise will highlight certain features of the quest for the historical (or otherwise) jesus. Does anyone disagree with the claim? Does anyone have anything to say on the principle of the exercise?

Best wishes,



Pete

aa5874

The historicity of Cosmas and Damien is really irrelevant to the historicity of Jesus of the NT, that is, whether or not they were real people cannot advance or deter any finding on Jesus of the NT.

And further, the Jesus of the NT has already been REJECTED by scholars, it is some other Jesus of whom no information whatsoever can be found in the NT or church writings that scholars are pursuing with futility.

There is really no need to consume much time with Cosmas or Damien, when those who are looking for their Jesus cannot answer the very basic of questions about their Jesus.

If you reject the Jesus of the NT, when and where did your Jesus live and under what name? And what source of antiquity wrote about your Jesus?

They must answer those basic questions if they want me to help them find him.

The search for Cosmas and Damien will never answer those basic questions about the other Jesus, the one that is nowhere, or no-one can find any information.

If their Jesus cannot be properly identified, how would one know that this Jesus can be found?

mountainman

Dear aa5874,

You of all people need a break from focussing with much devotion to the contemplation of the historical jesus: this thread was to examine what we know of another two miracle workers who supposedly lived in the third century. They were important enough to be the figureheads and Patron Saints of Medicine and Pharmacy - in Europe and England etc.

Nevertheless reserve a small amount of time to devote to a brief assessment of these other two miracles workers of the universal monotheistic church. The exercise I assure you will be rewarding.

Would anyone like to advance to first base by putting forward who is considered to be the very first historian to start taliking about these two people Cosmas and Damien?

Best wishes,


Pete

aa5874

But, I hope you appreciate the fact that I did respond to your post, look at the last paragraph, you did ask if there was anyone who disagreed with your claim.

I will remain focussed on the claims made by the authors of the NT and church writers since the verdict on Cosmas and Damien cannot be applied to Jesus of the NT without first examining the case for Jesus independently.

Huon

England was in Europe, yesterday ...
Please, Pete, do not mix history and hagiography.

Toto

At one time, I proposed that we might be able to track the course of legendary development by looking at the history of the saints, but I tend to doubt that now.

These and other saints came from a period of church history where the church was clearly engaged in myth making, and was more or less explicity incorporating pagan themes and personages as saints. I don't know that any historians think that the church was even trying to record secular history.

If you could show explicitly that the stories about Jesus were part of the same pattern, you would convince the world that the historical Jesus could not be recovered. But there is no general consensus on this question.

And even then, you don't know if Cosmas and Damien were pure storytelling, or were based on an actual pair of twin physicians, who might or might not have been Christians, and might or might not have been martyred.

mountainman

Dear aa5874,

Cosmas and Damien are an independent case study. They were supposedly born in the 3rd century. Their bones are scattered far and wide. Who first wrote about them? Square one.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear Huon,

You appear to be calling something either black or white when it has a million shades of grey. The question here is who is our earliest source of the hagiography or history - call it what you will.

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear Toto,

What were the main problems to this approach?

The specific question in this instance is the specific period and authors who revealed for posterity this tradition of Cosmas and Damien.

I would certainly like to see the arguments both for and against the historicity of this twin pair. Who promoted them first? Who and when, etc.

The same may be noted for the historical (or otherwise) jesus. The document tradition outlining the existence of Cosmas and Damien however is a separate and specific exercise in history, and it may prove to be an enlightening experience. We are after all to be discussing the subjects who's memory inspired extant monuments, such as the basilica to Cosmas and Damien in Rome.


Best wishes,


Pete

Toto

What I'm trying to say is that there is no "history" for Cosmas and Damien. They belong to the category "folklore."