Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 10:27 AM

In case the reader misses the point this is an additional level to our original argument about the parallel between the Samaritan liturgy and the original Christian gospel/liturgy. Not only does the Samaritan liturgy stretch from the beginning of the eleventh month to the middle of the first month (= Passover) identical to the Christian gospel (i.e. from John's baptism on January 6th to Passover) but now a Samaritan source says that the reason the liturgy is arranged this way is because the first miracle happened at the beginning of the eleventh month (i.e. two and a half months from Passover).

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 10:58 AM

The structure of the gospel narrative then is paralleled by the Exodus account in many ways - especially at the beginning. Forget the borrowing of the killing of the firstborn in Matthew. The original gospel had Jesus go in the water with John and fire appeared. The Samaritan tradition understands the first sign take place when Moses saw the burning bush took off his shoes and actually stood in the fire. This is repeated many times in Mark (the Samaritan).

Strange too that God tries to kill Moses in the wilderness and that in the gospel "At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him."

Yet the coupling of Moses and Aaron in the wilderness is what interests me. This seems to be the eventual basis for Secret Mark's initiation and adelphopoiesis (= brother making in general). Look at all Jesus disciples and they are all brothers. Judas is called 'twin' because he is made a brother.

The account in Exodus is bizarre and has struck many people as such because - in the manner of a bad movie - 'a brother' is introduced out of nowhere:

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the LORD said to Aaron, “Go into the wilderness to meet Moses.” So he met Moses at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 Then Moses told Aaron everything the LORD had sent him to say, and also about all the signs he had commanded him to perform.

Kissing is also an important part of the rituals of early Christianity. I remember somewhere that Clement says it is 'mystical' (I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure top of my head). Was Aaron really Moses's brother or was he made a brother (in a manner that anticipates the original Christian rite)? The point is that the Samaritans understand there to have been two apostles (they use the term all the time) who go to Egypt to perform signs as a warning Pharaoh. Can the gospel - which we have demonstrated bears an identical chronological timing - be understood in the same way? This is the challenge.

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 11:09 AM

Apparently the argument that Exodus is a literary 'type' of the gospel of John has been made by someone http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21100714298181

and someone else http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21100714298181

You know you are on solid footing when a google search reveals a gazillion hits. Here is another http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/exodus_nixon.pdf

a book http://books.google.com/books?id=w50...allels&f=false

J Bowman an noted Samaritan scholar has already suggested the same with Mark http://books.google.com/books?id=wSQ...allels&f=false

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 01:04 PM

J Bowman The Gospel of Mark: The New Christian Jewish Passover Haggadah p. 350

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We must remember that the Passover was not the Exodus, but the event which set the final phases of the Exodus in motion. The movement towards the Exodus started at the Burning Bush when God commissioned Moses and told him what to demand from Pharaoh. Eventually Pharaoh and the Egyptians were driven to accede to the demand following the slaying of the Firstborn concomitant with the Passover. But the Israelites were not free until they had crossed through the Sea.

Yet there are uncanny parallels between the original heretical gospel - witnessed in Irenaeus, the Anonymous Treatise on Baptism and the Letter to Theodore - insofar as like the ancient Israelites there are two crossings - that of the sea and that of the Jordan. The crossing of the sea occurs on the goings out of the seventh day of Unleavened Bread. The crossing of the Jordan on the first of the first.

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 01:22 PM

Bowman also identifies the very part of the Gospel of Mark where the baptism narrative of Secret Mark is found as the place you find the crossing of the sea even though he NEVER references Secret Mark or Morton Smith's discovery or for that matter the Church Fathers:

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It would be strange if Mark is a haggadic midrash of the New Exodus, should this the climax of the Exodus not find a place. Luke 9:31 at the Transfiguration states that Moses and Elijah spoke of His departure (Exodus) which he was to accomplish in Jerusalem ... If one were asked where we have an allusion in Mark's Gospel to Jesus' death as parallel to the Israelites passing through the Sea, one would have to point to Mark 10:38. This falls in the pericope Mark 10:35-45, where James and John ask Him (v.37) ' "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory."' Note this immediately follows the third prediction of His death which ends like the others 'and after three days he will arise (v. 34). Jesus asks them (v. 38) if they are able to be baptized ' "with the Baptism with which I am baptized."' It could be that in v. 30 we should make a distinction between Jesus' promise (v.39) ' "The cup that I drink you will drink" ' and His further affirmation in the same verse, ' "and with the baptism with which I am baptized you will be baptized. They need not refer to the same thing. The first, the reference to the cup may mean the martyr's death that awaited them, the second, the baptism, may be a sharing in the baptism with which Jesus was to be baptized, ie His death.

Rom. 6 :3 is important as showing how in Pauline thought baptism and Christ's death are closely associated, So to Rom. 6:4 'We were buried, therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life." On the other hand 1 Cor. 10:1, is relevant as showing the connection between the figure of baptism and the Crossing of the sea. 'Our fathers', says Paul, 'were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea." 'In Jewish Law (cf. M. Miqwaoth 5 :4) the Sea could be regarded as a Miqwah or a Jewish baptistry. In these verses from Romans and 1 Corinthians we have baptism and Christ's death closely linked, and baptism into Moses and the Crossing of the Sea. It is hardly going too far to suggest that Christ's death referred to in Mark 10:38,39 as His Baptism would be seen as the New Exodus equivalent of the Crossing of the Sea in the Old Exodus.

Yet Bowman is apparently unaware of the testimony of Irenaeus, the Anonymous Treatise and the Letter to Theodore which say - no this is not about the crucifixion but rather a baptism called 'the redemption' which appeared right beside (or in front) of this narrative - i.e. a second baptism.

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 03:21 PM

Moses standing in the fire:

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He was crowned with ten wonders never found in any man but him: The first in his feet, for he walked with them on the fire and he was not harmed by it. When did he tread in the fire except on the Day of Horeb? The fire was at the front —as He said, "Because the Lord descended upon it in fire" (Ex. xix. 1 8 ; Targ.), and there was darkness behind it and cloud in the midst of it. When he was summoned and he ascended, he was struck with fear the third time; he approached the deep darkness where the angels of God were, and he dwelt among powers. [Mimar Marqe 2:12]

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Where is there the like of Moses who trod the fire ?
Where is there the like of Moses who penetrated the high regions?
Where is there the like of Moses who approached the deep darkness?
Where is there the like of Moses to whom his Lord said, "Stand by me now" ? (cf. E x . xxxiii. 2 1 ). [ibid 4.12]

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They were followed by Joshua the son of Nun his minister, who went forward, kissed his [i.e. Moses] face, prostrated
himself at his feet and said, "Peace be to you, O faithful one of the house of God.
Peace be to you, O treasure of prophethood.
Peace be to you, O piercer of veils.
Peace be to you, you who trod the fire.
Peace be to you, you who approached the deep darkness.
Peace be to you, you who wear the brightness of light.
Peace be to you, O receiver of the two tablets.
Peace be to you, whom the Lord addressed face to face openly, not secretly.
Peace be to you, the like of whom has not arisen and never will arise.
O lord of the prophets, it is hard to part from you this day." [ibid 5.3]

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How great was the distress among the congregation as they all stood in much grief, saying aloud, "The great prophet Moses has gone from among us. Woe to us!" Their cry went up to heaven. While they each said this, tears dropped like rain from their eyes.
Far be it from you, O crown of the Righteous!
Far be it from you, O deliverer of the Hebrews!
Far be it from you, O establisher of the Favour!
Far be it from you, O revealer of wonders!
Far be it from you, O receiver of the tablets!
Far be it from you, O faithful one of God's House!
Far be it from you, O you who pierced the veils!
Far be it from you, O you who trod the fire!
Far be it from you, O Man of God!
Far be it from you, O you who were called a god!
Far be it from you, O you with whom God spoke mouth to mouth!
Far be it from you, O you the light of whose face shone!
Far be it from you, O you whose voice was heard with God's!
Far be it from you, O you who brought life to the generations for ever!
Who will pray for us after you ? Who will make atonement for our sins after you ? Who will have compassion for us after you ? Who will extinguish the fire of wrath from upon us after you ? All this from Israel, while the heavenly angels rejoiced at his approach.

They were descending from the high place to honour him. All the powers descended onto Mount Nebo as their Creator commanded them, for he was the faithful, true one. The Glory drew near to him and embraced him, while all the hosts of the hidden regions and of the revealed ones came to do honour to Moses the Man.[ibid]

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Fire glorified him seven tines: fire's first dealing with him was on Mount Sinai at the beginning of his prophetic mission; it was revealed to him in the Bush; from it call was made by name twice—"Moses, Moses" (Ex. iii. 4)—a great wonder the like of which has never been in the world and never will be! From the fire he was called on the morning of the day of Horeb, from the top of Mount Sinai in the presence of six hundred thousand; fire flaming up to the heart of heaven, as he said, "While the mountain burned with fire to the heart of heaven" (Deut. iv. 1 1 ) ; then he trod in it with his feet and was not harmed by it; it was like a plant with the dew of heaven on it under his feet; in the holy Sanctuary, when a priest offered the offering for Aaron and his sons, fire went forth from the Lord and consumed all that he had put upon the altar (Lev. ix. 24). [ibid]

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When the great prophet Moses erected the Sanctuary, the cloud covered all that he had made, as he said, "Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting" (Ex. xl. 34), and the Glory of the Lord dwelt within the veil, and the cloud abode on the Sanctuary many days. A t the time when he says, "Arise, 0 Lord" (Num. x. 35) and "Return, 0 Lord" (Num. x. 3 6 ) ; the peace of the Lord be upon him who saw such greatness! There has not arisen and never will arise his like. At the time God said to him, "Come up to me on the mountain" (Deut. x. 1 ; Targ.), when he went up to Him and the cloud covered him for six days, his body was holy and holiness was (thereby) increased. He ascended from human status to that of the angels. He was making supplication during the six days and prostrating before the King of all kings; he saw the Sanctuary of the Unseen spread out in the fire within the cloud. He was called on the seventh day from the midst of the cloud and he saw the ranks of the angels in their array. He descended from the mountain with great might—none like it! In the case of each of these things described there was a great wonder.[ibid]

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Two brothers were sanctified6 2—Moses and Aaron! The one a prophet, the other a priest; the one trod in the fire, the other consumed what was left over by the fire. The one died on the Goodly Mount and was buried on it, the other died on Mount Nebo. Look further on these two holy ones, Moses and Aaron. The great prophet Moses—the wonders that were wrought through him from heaven were hail, locusts, darkness. The great priest Aaron—the wonders that were wrought through him were from earth, the blood, frogs, gnats.

When the great prophet Moses stretched out his hand over the water of the sea, it was divided and fire was manifested which destroyed hosts, as He said, "Thou sendest forth Thy fury, it consumes them like stubble" (Ex. x v . 7; Targ.). The great priest Aaron raised his hands over six hundred thousand and blessed them. Fire came forth from before the Lord and consumed the burnt offering and the fat on the altar.

Aaron addressed all the congregation of the Israelites in the desert and the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud. When the great prophet Moses went out and addressed to the people all the commands of the Lord, the Lord came down in the cloud and addressed him. Exalted be these two for ever, the like of whom has not arisen from mankind. How does the death of Aaron compare with that of Moses ? Aaron was buried b y men; Moses was buried b y the Divine One![ibid 5.4]

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Consider this great prophet Moses whose position God exalted in both worlds. He honoured you too in what you heard. See how the light submitted before him when he entered into it and received the tablets. See how the darkness was dispelled before him and had no power over him. See how the fire submitted its power, so that he trod in it and it was like dew to him. See how the water's waves were stilled through fear of him, when he was cast into it.

Divinity said to him, "Come in peace! For your sake I appeared to bring forth my wonders."
The Glory said to him, "Come in peace! I will make my glory to pass before you."
The angels said to him, "Come in peace! O faithful one of God. We cannot turn away from you ever."
Honour said to him, "Peace be to you, O teacher! I am fitting for no man but you."
Good said to him, "Peace be to you, O Lawgiver. I am about to honour you."
Holiness said to him, "Peace be to you, O Man, for whose sake I was made." I shall multiply all good."
Faith said to him, "Peace be to you, O leader who led six hundredthousand."
Righteousness said to him, "Peace be to you, O son who grew upexcellently in my care."
Just as these did him honour, so the world bowed before him and said, "Exalted is this prophet whose Lord magnified him and who was worthy of it."

See him enter into the fire to receive from the right hand of God the tablets of the covenant, the autograph of the True One. When God willed and gave His autograph to the great prophet Moses in the two tablets of the covenant, after He had made Israel to hear His voice above Mount Sinai, He wrote them on both sides of the tablets, the one then the other. [ibid 6.2]

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Where is there the like of Moses and who can compare with Moses, a prophet to whom there is no like among all mankind ? When God appeared to him in the Bush, he found twenty-two letters written before him with devouring fire; by means of these Moses expounded the law. They are the elements of the words of Hebrew speech. Let us picture him as he wrote the law and divided up its sections as God had commanded him. [ibid 6.3]

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With his hands he received the autograph of God and it was a treasure-store of all knowledge.
His body mingled with the angels above and he dwelt with them, being worthy to do so.
His speech was like the speech of his Lord; all that his Lord said to him he carried out.
His voice mingled with the voice of his Lord and thus he was magnified above all the human race.
With his feet he trod in the great fire and it was to him like a shower of dew under his feet.

Where in the world is there a prophet to compare with Moses in the wonders he manifested, or like the miracles which he performed ? See how often he was honoured and how often magnified! Not even a man of knowledge can possibly realize the greatness of Moses. Thanks be to God who made him worthy of all these things and established him in a position which no man has occupied (other than he). He slew the Egyptians, Pharaoh4 3 and all his army. His Lord honoured him in the eyes of the two orders.4 4 He was a shepherd before the mountain. He built a sanctuary gloriously perfect, so that his Lord appeared to him in the flame of fire with manifold wonders. He hastened to Him in holiness, till he was in very great glory. There he was standing and his Lord calling him, till he trod in the fire and He addressed him. When he went to Pharaoh the unbeliever, he was crowned with wonders so that he subdued his might and turned the water of the river into blood; he also made frogs come out of it, and gnats from the dust; he brought forth flies throughout the land of E g y p t ; he made dust and ashes and manifested destruction among men and beasts. He opened up the sea with great might and then closed it with mighty power.[ibid]

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The servant of God (Deut. xxxiv. 5) trod in the fire and it was like dew under his feet. [ibid 6.6]

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[the letter Alef says to Moses] You drew near to the deep darkness and dwelt in the cloud. You were crowned with the light. You trod the fire and you were in places where no man had been besides you. Y o u called to heaven and it answered you, and earth did likewise. The waters were stilled at your words and could not dispel the force that subdued them. So when you trod the fire, its might was brought low and you walked in it. The angels glorified you and magnified your position and the Glory appeared to you. [ibid 6.12]

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I am about to reveal to you a rod out of the fire, and for your sake I will change it into any sort of thing you like. You will see it with your eyes, but its inner significance must be within your heart. You are going to manifest wonders from it.
This will be a wonder to you—a rod from the fire bringing revelation for you.
This will be a wonder to you—in it is great and powerful rulership.
This will be a wonder to you—a sword with which you will slay unbelievers [ibid 1.2]

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"A rod (Ex. iv. 2 ; Targ.) out of fire has been given to me by Thy goodness, with great sovereignty."
"Cast it now from your hand on the ground (Ex. iv. 3 ; Targ.), that you may see, my prophet, what is going to happen straightway."
So he cast it on the ground (Ex. iv. 3 ; Targ.) immediately at the command of his Lord, at His good intent. Moses had no sooner thrown it from his hand than it became a serpent (ibid.), the sight of it terrifying! He quaked and backed away; then out of the sheer intensity of his
fear Moses fled from it (ibid.) and was in great alarm. There was never anything like it, nor the extreme alarm of his heart. He was quite unable to approach it at the time. [ibid]

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I have given him my name, so that he need not fear. I have provided a rod for him out of the fire. I have shown him my signs, that his heart may not weaken. Despite that, he said,' I am inexpert in speaking', but I said to him, concerning you, 'He will be your prophet'. Said he, 'Will he understand what I say ?' Be you at ease! Be a good intermediary. Arise in the morning to meet your brother in the desert; go and meet him at the Mountain of God—two lights going out3 9 to each other." So he went and met him at the mountain of God (Ex. iv. 2 7 ; T a r g . )— the sun and the moon who came together from Amram and Jochebed. So he went and met him at the mountain of God—the Tigris and Euphrates joined together.

How good to see them embracing there, between them great joy, the one kissing the other with tears in their eyes, having double love for one another. "Welcome, my brother," Aaron said to Moses, "The years have been too long for me since last seeing you. Time is short! The God of the world has proclaimed to me in your name." Moses' joy was considerably increased (on hearing that). "Praise be to the Powerful One who has brought us together now after much delay, for a meeting after tarrying greatly increases love."
Jacob was united with Esau after many years, and their joy was great and their hostility removed.
In the cave of the rock they stood, the two of them in great affection.
And Moses told Aaron all the words of the Lord (Ex. iv. 2 8 ; Targ.) and revealed to him these signs. Moses performed them in Aaron's presence.
When he heard these words from Moses, he began to utter praises to the God of the world. "Happy are you, my brother, for these mysteries which He has revealed to you."
How excellent to see them enter Egypt like the two angels who entered Sodom!
The two angels entered Sodom at eventide, sent to open the storehouse of wrath upon all the inhabitants therein.
Moses and Aaron entered Egypt at eventide, sent to open the storehouse of judgement therein.
The angels were sent to destroy Sodom. Moses and Aaron were sent to destroy Egypt.
The angels ate unleavened bread in Sodom. Moses and Aaron celebrated the feast of unleavened bread in Egypt.
The angels burnt the young in the deep. Moses and Aaron smote Pishon, tributary of Eden.
The angels drove Lot out in the morning. Moses and Aaron led the Israelites out before morning.
Excellent for ever these two! Their greatness fills the heavens and the earth! ]ibid 1.3]

After this Moses went back and requested the words of mercy which are attributive names. Our Lord appeared and wrote before him these scriptures which He wrote b y His greatness.
Believe in him—you will be safe from all wrath , 1 4 9 in the Day of Vengeance you will find rest; in the fire you will not be. I t will have no power over you. [ibid 4.7]

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 06:56 PM

There are numerous sources on the Samaritan interest in purification by fire. When Hadiran visits Samaria the Samaritans are said to have purified every place he visited with fire. The Emperor Zeno also prohibited Samaritans from using some sort of fire ritual. It is also present in the account of Baba Raba.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eIh...ritans&f=false

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 07:01 PM

The Kitab Al-Kafi on what is cleansed by water or fire or that which cannot be cleansed by either (by my best friend Rory Boid):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kw3...q=fire&f=false

stephan huller · 04-11-2012, 07:39 PM

Most of us don't think of the baptism narrative taking place in two parts but the group criticized in the Anonymous Treatise, the Marcosians and Clement of Alexandria did. Jesus standing in fire beside John the Baptist is done as a presage of the baptism by fire before Mark 10:35 - 45. So did Mark treat the burning bush before Moses eventually going into the fire on Sinai:

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Great was the miracle seen there, containing three quite distinct features: shooting flames; the bush standing up prominently in it; the angel proclaiming, while Moses listened fearfully.
He said Moses, Moses, and he replied Here am I (Ex. iii. 4, et seq.).
Wonderful mysteries and all revelations were sent down.
He said Moses, Moses, telling him that he would bring about His will and His recompense.
He said Moses, Moses, revealing to him that he would be vested with prophethood and the divine Name.
He said Moses, Moses, making known to him that he would be the deliverer of the Hebrews and the slayer of the Egyptians.[MM 1.2]

Moses initially reaches into the fire of the burning bush to get the staff that turns into a snake and then later is actually standing in the fire when he is given the Torah.

Sheshbazzar · 04-12-2012, 06:03 AM

Was this really a question ? from one seeking real answers ?
Or, Was the question ? only intended to serve as a rhetorical prelude to a verbose monologue about anything but these 'Seventy Seven Days'?

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Originally Posted by Stephan Huller

IF January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion.....

A very BIG IF.

You are aware of course, that your 'January' and 'March' designations here are utterly foreign and alien to the Biblical texts, and that righteous Judeans and their fellow Hebrews did not use these terms, and were by The Law restrained from unequally dividing their months and their years in the fashion of other nations?

The shuffling around of pagan Roman 'calendars' by the Cesar's to pander to their vanity, could not break, nor ever move even one second of the pattern, the order, and the time divisions of the ancient Scriptural calendar from one month into another. Their ways were not equal, your ways are not equal.

.

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04-11-2012, 10:27 AM	#31
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	In case the reader misses the point this is an additional level to our original argument about the parallel between the Samaritan liturgy and the original Christian gospel/liturgy. Not only does the Samaritan liturgy stretch from the beginning of the eleventh month to the middle of the first month (= Passover) identical to the Christian gospel (i.e. from John's baptism on January 6th to Passover) but now a Samaritan source says that the reason the liturgy is arranged this way is because the first miracle happened at the beginning of the eleventh month (i.e. two and a half months from Passover).

04-11-2012, 11:09 AM	#33
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Apparently the argument that Exodus is a literary 'type' of the gospel of John has been made by someone http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21100714298181 and someone else http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21100714298181 You know you are on solid footing when a google search reveals a gazillion hits. Here is another http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/exodus_nixon.pdf a book http://books.google.com/books?id=w50...allels&f=false J Bowman an noted Samaritan scholar has already suggested the same with Mark http://books.google.com/books?id=wSQ...allels&f=false

04-11-2012, 06:56 PM	#37
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	There are numerous sources on the Samaritan interest in purification by fire. When Hadiran visits Samaria the Samaritans are said to have purified every place he visited with fire. The Emperor Zeno also prohibited Samaritans from using some sort of fire ritual. It is also present in the account of Baba Raba. http://books.google.com/books?id=eIh...ritans&f=false

04-11-2012, 07:01 PM	#38
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Kitab Al-Kafi on what is cleansed by water or fire or that which cannot be cleansed by either (by my best friend Rory Boid): http://books.google.com/books?id=Kw3...q=fire&f=false

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