Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-07-2012, 12:30 AM

I have always been attracted to Clement of Alexandria and certain other 'heretical groups' identification of the 'year of favor' (Isa 61:2) to correspond to Jesus's ministry. Yet I can't see how this lasted longer than seventy seven days. If January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion that's exactly seventy seven days. If Matthew's idea of forty days in the wilderness is authentic then there is even less time for the narrative. What went on in the liturgy the other two hundred and eighty eight days of the year in the early Church? Was it just the last two months of the Jewish year up until Passover? I guess there was Pentecost too for those who accepted Acts. It just seems odd that everything was compressed into January 6 - March 23.

Vorkosigan · 04-07-2012, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always been attracted to Clement of Alexandria and certain other 'heretical groups' identification of the 'year of favor' (Isa 61:2) to correspond to Jesus's ministry. Yet I can't see how this lasted longer than seventy seven days. If January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion that's exactly seventy seven days. If Matthew's idea of forty days in the wilderness is authentic then there is even less time for the narrative. What went on in the liturgy the other two hundred and eighty eight days of the year in the early Church? Was it just the last two months of the Jewish year up until Passover? I guess there was Pentecost too for those who accepted Acts. It just seems odd that everything was compressed into January 6 - March 23.

Where in the patristic literature does it give the baptism and crucifixion dates? Didn't those arise after Constantine?

Chili · 04-07-2012, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always been attracted to Clement of Alexandria and certain other 'heretical groups' identification of the 'year of favor' (Isa 61:2) to correspond to Jesus's ministry. Yet I can't see how this lasted longer than seventy seven days. If January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion that's exactly seventy seven days. If Matthew's idea of forty days in the wilderness is authentic then there is even less time for the narrative. What went on in the liturgy the other two hundred and eighty eight days of the year in the early Church? Was it just the last two months of the Jewish year up until Passover? I guess there was Pentecost too for those who accepted Acts. It just seems odd that everything was compressed into January 6 - March 23.

Jan.6 is Epiphany that confirms illumination on which the seventh day has arrived now with 2 years to go till the Great Easter of life transforms 6.55 into 777 = 'I Am' [the bread of live in mind, soul and body].

PhilosopherJay · 04-07-2012, 08:58 AM

Hi stephan huller,

Interesting catch. January 6 is apparently the day that Egyptians celebrated the Winter Solstice.

Note this from Sol Invictus and Christmas:

Quote:

At about the same time, on Christmas day in AD 380, Gregory of Nazianzus delivered a sermon at Constantinople on the Theophany (the Epiphany or manifestation) of Christ, which the Eastern churches of Egypt and Asia Minor traditionally celebrated on January 6. (The Western church celebrates January 6 as the Feast of the Epiphany, commemorating the visitation of the Magi in Bethlehem. Eventually, the time between Christmas and Epiphany would become known as the twelve days of Christmas.) "Today is the feast of God's Appearing, or of the Nativity: both names are used, both titles given to the one reality....The name of the feast, then, is 'Theophany' because he has appeared, but 'Nativity' because he has been born" (Oration XXXVIII.2-3).

Indeed, Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis who died in AD 403, continued to argue that January 6 was the date of Jesus' birth. "Greeks, I mean idolaters, celebrate this day on the eighth before the Kalends of January [December 25], which Romans call Saturnalia....For this division between the signs of the zodiac, which is a solstice, comes on the eighth before the Kalends of January, and the day begins to lengthen because the light is receiving its increase. And it completes a period of thirteen days until the eighth before the Ides of January [January 6], the day of Christ's birth" (Panarion, IV.22.5-6; also 22.17-18 "For the magi themselves reached Bethlehem...on this very day of the Epiphany, and offered their gifts, the myrrh, the gold and the frankincense" and 24.1 "For Christ was born in the month of January, that is, on the eighth before the Ides of January—in the Roman calendar this is the evening of January fifth, at the beginning of January sixth").

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always been attracted to Clement of Alexandria and certain other 'heretical groups' identification of the 'year of favor' (Isa 61:2) to correspond to Jesus's ministry. Yet I can't see how this lasted longer than seventy seven days. If January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion that's exactly seventy seven days. If Matthew's idea of forty days in the wilderness is authentic then there is even less time for the narrative. What went on in the liturgy the other two hundred and eighty eight days of the year in the early Church? Was it just the last two months of the Jewish year up until Passover? I guess there was Pentecost too for those who accepted Acts. It just seems odd that everything was compressed into January 6 - March 23.

Quote:

Also note this from an article entitled The Date of Christ's Birth:
Clement of Alexandria says, "From the birth of Christ, therefore, to the death of Commodus [the Roman emperor who died on 31 December AD 192 (14)] are, in all, a hundred and ninety-four years, one month, thirteen days" (15). If we suppose that he is using the Roman calendar, we deduce that Clement set Christ's birth on 18 November 3 BC (16). But it is highly doubtful that this date, affirmed by no other ancient source, is the one he so confidently espouses. We arrive at a different date if we suppose that Clement, a resident of Egypt, is using the Egyptian calendar without intercalation. Measuring backward from Commodus' death an interval of 194 years (each exactly 365 days), one month (thirty days), and thirteen days brings us to 6 January 2 BC (17).

Clement apparently thought the birthday and baptism day was on the day of the Winter Solstice, Jan 6.

Irenaeus, as I recall, placed Jesus' death when he was near 50, probably meaning 49 (7 x 7 = 49).

This suggests that the Gospels and their crucifixion under Pilate in the time of Tiberius stories did not appear authoritative until the 3rd century.

Having Jesus preach for 77 days between Winter Solstice and Passover makes perfect sense in a society where 7 was considered a magic number (the number of days it took Yaheweh to create the world)

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

outhouse · 04-07-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I have always been attracted to Clement of Alexandria and certain other 'heretical groups' identification of the 'year of favor' (Isa 61:2) to correspond to Jesus's ministry. Yet I can't see how this lasted longer than seventy seven days. If January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion that's exactly seventy seven days. If Matthew's idea of forty days in the wilderness is authentic then there is even less time for the narrative. What went on in the liturgy the other two hundred and eighty eight days of the year in the early Church? Was it just the last two months of the Jewish year up until Passover? I guess there was Pentecost too for those who accepted Acts. It just seems odd that everything was compressed into January 6 - March 23.

Absolutely NO historicty to any of your statements regarding HJ

the 40 days is not a literal 40 days for one, and probably fiction.

Clement is useless for anything at all regarding HJ

stephan huller · 04-09-2012, 02:47 PM

Ignoring the usual idiocy the next layering on this seventy seven day liturgy is something most scholars of early Christianity never bother to ask - what would the calendar look like if it were laid on top of a Jewish calendar? The answer is quite surprising.

Let's start with the known variables - the crucifixion took place on or around 14 Nissan. I am going to assume that the Christian calendar was based on the Dosithean calendar of twelve solar months thirty days in length with perhaps five extra days (but we will leave that aside for the moment). The reason for this assumption is that it is the calendar of the Egyptian church as well as the reported calendar of the Montanists.

If we forget about the five intercalendar days we go back fourteen days to the beginning of Nissan, thirty days to the beginning of Adar (or the twelfth month according to the Samaritans) and thirty days to the beginning of Shevat (or the eleventh month) and then arrive at something like the third last day of the tenth month.

Why would Jesus's baptism coincide with something like the beginning of Shevat? The answer is found in the Samaritan celebration of Simmot:

Quote:

This Sabbath is a special Sabbath that precedes the coming of the Passover. It is called "Simmot" (in Old Aramic) of the Passover, in memorial of the meeting between Moses and Aaron his brother after they had not seen each other for sixty years. The "Simmot" occurs twice in a year, before Passover and before the Seventh month bodes the coming of the day of Atonement, and is in a memory of the death of Aaron the priest). This Sabbath (of this week) is also the third Sabbath of the Sabbaths of the ("Mofatem"-in old Hebrew) signal and strokes (signs and wonders) which God stroked the Egyptians. They start on the first Sabbath of the 11th month but this year it starts on the 12th month because we have 13 months this year and end at the Passover sacrifice where the last stroke (wonder) occurred (two months, as you read in the book of the Enlightment if you recall). Each Sabbath is in a memory of a signal or a stroke (sign and wonder). One of the customs of this special time is to give the children an allowance. The Sabbath before this Sabbath ("Simmot") is the Sabbath that the priests of the community publish the new calendar for the next-half of the year. Every young boy above twenty years of age must contribute his contribution to the High Priest, and he receives his calendar. The High Priest will publish the calendar for the second part of the year at the next “Simmot,” before the Seventh month, which occurs two months before the Day of Atonement. The Book of Enlightenment by Jacob, Son of Aaron may be found in our archives under the section Midrash and Halachah.

I think the fact that the Samaritans celebrated a 'pre-Passover celebration' on the very same day as the baptism in Jordan is significant. It is also related to the 'redemption' theme insofar as this is the last time that Samaritans collect for the mandatory half-shekel tax. Yet perhaps most significant of all, the first of Shevat is explicitly stated to be the start of Deuteronomy and the Great Song or Song of Moses. This is a very mystically significant poem. More to follow

stephan huller · 04-09-2012, 11:14 PM

So I have determined today with the help of my Samaritan friend that the Samaritans have a liturgical parallel with the Christians. In the same way as the gospel is ostensibly about a Passover sacrifice but starts seventy seven days earlier on the first Sabbath in the eleventh month and runs through until the 15th of the first month the Samaritans were the first ones to stretch the liturgy of the Passover back to the first Sabbath of the eleventh month. This has never been noticed before because very little work has been done on the Samaritan liturgy.

I am getting a firm list of how the ten plagues are broken up (Marqe actually treats them as eleven plagues). Nevertheless the reading stretch from Exodus 7:14 - 12:36 and over the eleven Sabbaths called 'the Sabbaths of the Miracles.' I think this model was used for the basis of the liturgy and the gospel.

I can find no references to any of this material in Clement of Alexandria yet I am interest in understanding Jesus's signs (= Heb. m

I wonder if anyone else can see any way that the 'signs' in the gospel match this list of signs in Exodus:

Quote:

1. Water, which turned to blood and killed all fish and other aquatic life (Exodus 7:14–25)
2. Frogs (Exodus 8:1–8:15)
3. Lice (Exodus 8:16–19)
4. Flies or [5] wild animals (Exodus 8:20–30)
5. Disease on livestock (Exodus 9:1–7)
6. Unhealable boils (Exodus 9:8–12)
7. Hail and thunder (Exodus 9:13–35)
8. Locusts (Exodus 10:1–20)
9. Darkness (Exodus 10:21–29)
10. Death of the first-born of all Egyptian humans and animals. To be saved, the Israelites had to place the blood of a lamb on their door. (Exodus 11, Exodus 12)

I am thinking that Jesus's signs were warnings which the Jews did not heed much like Moses. This theme seems to be present in Irenaeus:

Quote:

For the sesame heretics already mentioned by us have fallen away from themselves, by accusing the Lord, in whom they say that they believe. For those points to which they call attention with regard to the God who then awarded temporal punishments to the unbelieving, and smote the Egyptians, while He saved those that were obedient; these same [facts, I say,] shall nevertheless repeat themselves in the Lord, who judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free: and He shall [thus] be discovered, according to the language used by these men, as having been the cause of their most heinous sin to those who laid hands upon Him, and pierced Him. For if He had not so Come, it follows that these men could not have become the slayers of their Lord; and if He had not sent prophets to them, they certainly could not have killed them, nor the apostles either. To those, therefore, who assail us, and say, If the Egyptians had not been afflicted with plagues, and, when pursuing after Israel, been choked in the sea, God could not have saved His people, this answer may be given;--Unless, then, the Jews had become the slayers of the Lord (which did, indeed, take eternal life away from them), and, by killing the apostles and persecuting the Church, had fallen into an abyss of wrath, we could not have been saved. For as they were saved by means of the blindness of the Egyptians, so are we, too, by that of the Jews; if, indeed, the death of the Lord is the condemnation of those who fastened Him to the cross, and who did not believe His advent, but the salvation of those who believe in Him. For the apostle does also say in the Second [Epistle] to the Corinthians: "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them which are saved, and in them which perish: to the one indeed the savour of death unto death, but to the other the savour of life unto life." To whom, then, is there the savour of death unto death, unless to those who believe not neither are subject to the Word of God? And who are they that did even then give themselves over to death? Those men, doubtless, who do not believe, nor submit themselves to God. And again, who are they that have been saved and received the inheritance? Those, doubtless, who do believe God, and who have continued in His love; as did Caleb [the son] of Jephunneh and Joshua [the son] of Nun,(2) and innocent children,(3) who have had no sense of evil. But who are they that are saved now, and receive life eternal? Is it not those who love God, and who believe His promises, and who "in malice have become as little children?" [AH 4.28]

Any constructive assistance to help link the chronology of the gospel narrative and its signs to the ten (or eleven) plagues of Exodus would be most helpful.

steve_bnk · 04-09-2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So I have determined today with the help of my Samaritan friend that the Samaritans have a liturgical parallel with the Christians. In the same way as the gospel is ostensibly about a Passover sacrifice but starts seventy seven days earlier on the first Sabbath in the eleventh month and runs through until the 15th of the first month the Samaritans were the first ones to stretch the liturgy of the Passover back to the first Sabbath of the eleventh month. This has never been noticed before because very little work has been done on the Samaritan liturgy.

I am getting a firm list of how the ten plagues are broken up (Marqe actually treats them as eleven plagues). Nevertheless the reading stretch from Exodus 7:14 - 12:36 and over the eleven Sabbaths called 'the Sabbaths of the Miracles.' I think this model was used for the basis of the liturgy and the gospel.

I can find no references to any of this material in Clement of Alexandria yet I am interest in understanding Jesus's signs (= Heb. m

I wonder if anyone else can see any way that the 'signs' in the gospel match this list of signs in Exodus:

Quote:

1. Water, which turned to blood and killed all fish and other aquatic life (Exodus 7:14–25)
2. Frogs (Exodus 8:1–8:15)
3. Lice (Exodus 8:16–19)
4. Flies or [5] wild animals (Exodus 8:20–30)
5. Disease on livestock (Exodus 9:1–7)
6. Unhealable boils (Exodus 9:8–12)
7. Hail and thunder (Exodus 9:13–35)
8. Locusts (Exodus 10:1–20)
9. Darkness (Exodus 10:21–29)
10. Death of the first-born of all Egyptian humans and animals. To be saved, the Israelites had to place the blood of a lamb on their door. (Exodus 11, Exodus 12)

I am thinking that Jesus's signs were warnings which the Jews did not heed much like Moses. This theme seems to be present in Irenaeus:

Quote:

For the sesame heretics already mentioned by us have fallen away from themselves, by accusing the Lord, in whom they say that they believe. For those points to which they call attention with regard to the God who then awarded temporal punishments to the unbelieving, and smote the Egyptians, while He saved those that were obedient; these same [facts, I say,] shall nevertheless repeat themselves in the Lord, who judges for eternity those whom He doth judge, and lets go free for eternity those whom He does let go free: and He shall [thus] be discovered, according to the language used by these men, as having been the cause of their most heinous sin to those who laid hands upon Him, and pierced Him. For if He had not so Come, it follows that these men could not have become the slayers of their Lord; and if He had not sent prophets to them, they certainly could not have killed them, nor the apostles either. To those, therefore, who assail us, and say, If the Egyptians had not been afflicted with plagues, and, when pursuing after Israel, been choked in the sea, God could not have saved His people, this answer may be given;--Unless, then, the Jews had become the slayers of the Lord (which did, indeed, take eternal life away from them), and, by killing the apostles and persecuting the Church, had fallen into an abyss of wrath, we could not have been saved. For as they were saved by means of the blindness of the Egyptians, so are we, too, by that of the Jews; if, indeed, the death of the Lord is the condemnation of those who fastened Him to the cross, and who did not believe His advent, but the salvation of those who believe in Him. For the apostle does also say in the Second [Epistle] to the Corinthians: "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them which are saved, and in them which perish: to the one indeed the savour of death unto death, but to the other the savour of life unto life." To whom, then, is there the savour of death unto death, unless to those who believe not neither are subject to the Word of God? And who are they that did even then give themselves over to death? Those men, doubtless, who do not believe, nor submit themselves to God. And again, who are they that have been saved and received the inheritance? Those, doubtless, who do believe God, and who have continued in His love; as did Caleb [the son] of Jephunneh and Joshua [the son] of Nun,(2) and innocent children,(3) who have had no sense of evil. But who are they that are saved now, and receive life eternal? Is it not those who love God, and who believe His promises, and who "in malice have become as little children?" [AH 4.28]

Any constructive assistance to help link the chronology of the gospel narrative and its signs to the ten (or eleven) plagues of Exodus would be most helpful.

In a political context JC would have been preaching the looming detruction of Israel if they did not get their act together. By the NT, it was PAaul that sold it to urban gentiles.

stephan huller · 04-09-2012, 11:48 PM

Here is more what I was looking for, although I would still like a more direct connection with the miracles of Jesus in the gospel:

Quote:

It is contained in the mysteries of the sacred writings, that a prince of the Hebrews, compelled by want of grain, passed into Egypt with all his family and relatives. And when his posterity, remaining long in Egypt, had increased into a great nation, and were oppressed by the heavy and intolerable yoke of slavery, God smote Egypt with an incurable stroke, and freed His people, leading them through the midst of the sea, when, the waves being cut asunder and parted on either side, the people went over on dry ground. And the king of the Egyptians endeavouring to follow them as they fled, the sea returning to its place, he was cut off, with all his people. And this deed so illustrious and so wonderful, although for the present it displayed to men the power of God, was also a foreshadowing and figure of a greater deed, which the same God was about to perform at the last consummation of the times, for He will free His people from the oppressive bondage of the world. But since at that time the people of God were one, and in one nation only, Egypt only was smitten. But now, because the people of God are collected out of all languages, and dwell among all nations, and are oppressed by those bearing rule over them, it must come to pass that all nations, that is, the whole world, be beaten with heavenly stripes, that the righteous people, who are worshippers of God, may be set free. And as then signs were given by which the coming destruction was shown to the Egyptians, so at the last time wonderful prodigies will take place throughout all the elements of the world, by which the impending destruction may be understood by all nations. [Lactantius Divine Institutes 7:15]

stephan huller · 04-10-2012, 12:14 AM

Marqe again has the closest thing to what we are looking for:

Quote:

Woe to Pharaoh and all the Egyptians when this great name [Eyheh Asheh Eyheh] was revealed and Moses the Man entered Pharaoh's presence with it. He triumphed over Pharaoh's might and terrified him. So when the True One appeared and the world heard the words, even I, am He, all the world perished then. The good were delivered and all the evil suffered retribution. Blessed are they who obey and woe to all who rebel. This is a merciful God apart from whom there is no other.

Let us submit before Him and worship His greatness. This is a true prophet sent from God.1 8 9 Blessed are they who believe in Him. Let us love Him and keep His commandments, that our Lord may love us and send us deliverance. [Mimar Marqe 4.8]

04-07-2012, 12:30 AM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Did the Whole Gospel Narrative Last Only Seventy Seven Days? I have always been attracted to Clement of Alexandria and certain other 'heretical groups' identification of the 'year of favor' (Isa 61:2) to correspond to Jesus's ministry. Yet I can't see how this lasted longer than seventy seven days. If January 6th was the day of his baptism and March 23rd the day of his crucifixion that's exactly seventy seven days. If Matthew's idea of forty days in the wilderness is authentic then there is even less time for the narrative. What went on in the liturgy the other two hundred and eighty eight days of the year in the early Church? Was it just the last two months of the Jewish year up until Passover? I guess there was Pentecost too for those who accepted Acts. It just seems odd that everything was compressed into January 6 - March 23.

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