Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-24-2009, 04:26 PM

The very first tract in the first of the Nag Hammadi Codices is a short text which is entitled Prayer of the Apostle Paul. Analysis of the text indicates that the "Prayer of Paul" consists of 11 sentences containing 19 demands from "the redeemer". Every sentence contains at least one demand; some multiple demands. Would anyone like to hazard a guess why this might be so? For example, is it coincidental that the "Prayer of Paul" consists of an unbroken series of "Pauline" demands?

Text of Prayer of the Apostle Paul

Approximately two lines are missing.)

... your light, give me your mercy!
My Redeemer, redeem me, for I am yours; the one who has come forth from you.
You are my mind; bring me forth!
You are my treasure house; open for me!
You are my fullness; take me to you!
You are (my) repose; give me the perfect thing that cannot be grasped!

=============== 6 sentences, 6 demands

I invoke you, the one who is and who pre-existed in the name which is exalted above every name,
through Jesus Christ, the Lord of Lords, the King of the ages; give me your gifts,
of which you do not repent, through the Son of Man, the Spirit, the Paraclete of truth.

=============== 1 sentence, 1 demands

Give me authority when I ask you;
give healing for my body when I ask you through the Evangelist, and
redeem my eternal light soul and my spirit.
And the First-born of the Pleroma of grace -- reveal him to my mind!

=============== 2 sentences, 5 demands

Grant what no angel eye has seen and no archon ear (has) heard,
and what has not entered into the human heart
which came to be angelic and (modelled) after the image of the psychic God
when it was formed in the beginning,
since I have faith and hope.

=============== 1 sentence, 3 demands

And place upon me your beloved, elect, and blessed greatness,
the First-born, the First-begotten, and the wonderful mystery of your house;
for yours is the power and the glory
and the praise and the greatness
for ever and ever. Amen.

=============== 1 sentence, 4 demands + "Amen"

Prayer of Paul (the) Apostle.
In Peace.
Christ is holy.

TOTAL =============== 11 sentences, 19 demands

Failte · 10-24-2009, 04:41 PM

Because Paul was a type-a, over-controlling, self-important type who believes himself to be more important to christianity than god?

mountainman · 10-24-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failte

Because Paul was a type-a, over-controlling, self-important type who believes himself to be more important to christianity than god?

It is quite possible, I agree with you, that the author of this text presents this "Apostle Paul" as a type-a, over-controlling, self-important type who believes himself to be more important to the authoritrian centralised imperial state christianity than god. The text has an effective C14 date of the mid-fourth century.

Could it be we are dealing with a satiral exposee?

Toto · 10-25-2009, 12:53 AM

What you label "demands" seem more like entreaties, the typical subject of prayer.

Have you listened to any prayer? This is fairly typical, not in any way satirical. Satire is "Oh Lord Won't You Buy Me a Mercedes Benz." This prayer asks for things that a religious leader should want to have.

Of course, for an atheist, the whole idea of prayer is a bit ridiculous and easy to satirize - Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be nullified on behalf of a single petitioner, admittedly unworthy. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

But I see no indication that this early Christian, whoever he was, thought that his prayers were ridiculous.

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Satire is "Oh Lord Won't You Buy Me a Mercedes Benz." This prayer asks for things that a religious leader should want to have.

"Give me authority - when I ask you"

Quote:

I see no indication that this early Christian, whoever he was, thought that his prayers were ridiculous.

Take off the "early Christian glasses" for just a moment.
The text is obvious not written by any "Paul" you know.
But obviously someone was writing in the name of "Paul".

Question: Why were these books - the Nag Hammadi codices buried?
Answer: Because they were deemed to be heretical to the christians.

Perhaps the heresy was composing prayers in the name of the bonehead Paul? ....... "Hey YOU! Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Give me ... Amen"

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 03:15 AM

Apparently one of those bogus "Christian Saints" was previously a pagan anti-christian satirist. Genesius of Rome in the fourth century had a church was built in his honour. He was a pagan performing an anti-Christian satire in front of Diocletian but right at the critical juncture in the play was miraculously remotely controlled by the holy ghost and - behold - became christian on the spot. He was promptly beheaded by Diocletian for his impiety.

This story about the fabulous Christian Saint Genesius is obviously bogus, but the issue it brings to the surface is that whoever wrote the late (4th century) martrology of this fabulous Christian Saint Genesius was aware of the existence of public anti-christian satire in the 4th century, and simply turned it to their advantage by the usual christian trick of historical retrojection.

Clivedurdle · 10-25-2009, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Satire is "Oh Lord Won't You Buy Me a Mercedes Benz

Nope

That definitely is genuine prayer! Have you no idea of the wonder of a merc?

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Satire is "Oh Lord Won't You Buy Me a Mercedes Benz

That definitely is genuine prayer! Have you no idea of the wonder of a merc?

I'll have that Merc. And gimme the V8 Cadilac out the back, and the pair of Range Rovers, the seventeen hummers in the yard. Gimme the keys to the new car and used car lots across the continent, and unlimited free fuel. My pleroma of fuel I demand and I entreat because I am volatile. Gimme the Lambhourghini and the Lotus. If you cant afford to give me a Dodge, dodge giving me a Ford. But gimme the Chopper and the seventy three chopper pads across the empire, and the fleet of Mac trucks. Throw in a trininity of Rolls Royces for our Holy Appearances sake. Gimme more petrol. Gimme some Jumbos Lord! Gimme cars and trucks and planes and ships and space shuttles - WHEN I ASK FOR THEM. Give me authority to take what I want. When I want. How I want. Right now! In your name's sake. Amen.

Toto · 10-25-2009, 04:56 PM

Like I said, all prayer sounds ridiculous to us infidels, so we might have trouble distinguishing between real prayer and parodies. But look up the Prayer of Jebez. And look up how much money it has raked in, and the cash flowing in to the prosperity gospel hucksters.

Still, it looks to me as if Paul is praying for healing and spiritual gifts, not gold and a new chariot.

mountainman · 10-25-2009, 05:24 PM

For Christ's sake the author cannot be "Paul". We are dealing with a profile. We have no IP address. The context of the text is not today. We are not talking about a christian and a non christian today, but in the fourth century, when everything was a great deal far more white and black. A massive revolution was taking place. The new testament was at its focus but the revolution was not known for its spirituality. It was known for its persecution and intolerance. These texts (NHC) were buried by the persecutees in order that they might be preserved to us today, safe from the destruction of them by the persecutors. The persecutors were the orthodox christians - the emperors and their minions - at that epoch.

With this context in mind I'd like to ask you whether you think that it is possible for you to consider that the author of this "Prayer of Paul" was a non christian. I am not asking you whether you think the author was a non christian, I am asking you whether you are able to entertain the concept at all. These are the texts of "heretics" and "infidels". Paul and the man the church nailed to the cross to keep him became political. How open minded are people?

I completely understand that everyone (by default consensus) presumes this to have been authored a "christian". I want to know if anyone here is able to entertain the objective position of considering that this text was in fact not written by a "christian" but in fact by a "non christian", and what the implications of this possibility may be.

10-24-2009, 04:26 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	The Prayer of the Apostle Paul [Nag Hammadi as satire] The very first tract in the first of the Nag Hammadi Codices is a short text which is entitled Prayer of the Apostle Paul. Analysis of the text indicates that the "Prayer of Paul" consists of 11 sentences containing 19 demands from "the redeemer". Every sentence contains at least one demand; some multiple demands. Would anyone like to hazard a guess why this might be so? For example, is it coincidental that the "Prayer of Paul" consists of an unbroken series of "Pauline" demands? Text of Prayer of the Apostle Paul Approximately two lines are missing.) ... your light, give me your mercy! My Redeemer, redeem me, for I am yours; the one who has come forth from you. You are my mind; bring me forth! You are my treasure house; open for me! You are my fullness; take me to you! You are (my) repose; give me the perfect thing that cannot be grasped! =============== 6 sentences, 6 demands I invoke you, the one who is and who pre-existed in the name which is exalted above every name, through Jesus Christ, the Lord of Lords, the King of the ages; give me your gifts, of which you do not repent, through the Son of Man, the Spirit, the Paraclete of truth. =============== 1 sentence, 1 demands Give me authority when I ask you; give healing for my body when I ask you through the Evangelist, and redeem my eternal light soul and my spirit. And the First-born of the Pleroma of grace -- reveal him to my mind! =============== 2 sentences, 5 demands Grant what no angel eye has seen and no archon ear (has) heard, and what has not entered into the human heart which came to be angelic and (modelled) after the image of the psychic God when it was formed in the beginning, since I have faith and hope. =============== 1 sentence, 3 demands And place upon me your beloved, elect, and blessed greatness, the First-born, the First-begotten, and the wonderful mystery of your house; for yours is the power and the glory and the praise and the greatness for ever and ever. Amen. =============== 1 sentence, 4 demands + "Amen" Prayer of Paul (the) Apostle. In Peace. Christ is holy. TOTAL =============== 11 sentences, 19 demands

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10-24-2009, 04:41 PM	#2
Failte Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,405	Because Paul was a type-a, over-controlling, self-important type who believes himself to be more important to christianity than god?

10-25-2009, 12:53 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What you label "demands" seem more like entreaties, the typical subject of prayer. Have you listened to any prayer? This is fairly typical, not in any way satirical. Satire is "Oh Lord Won't You Buy Me a Mercedes Benz." This prayer asks for things that a religious leader should want to have. Of course, for an atheist, the whole idea of prayer is a bit ridiculous and easy to satirize - Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be nullified on behalf of a single petitioner, admittedly unworthy. - Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary But I see no indication that this early Christian, whoever he was, thought that his prayers were ridiculous.

10-25-2009, 03:15 AM	#6
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Apparently one of those bogus "Christian Saints" was previously a pagan anti-christian satirist. Genesius of Rome in the fourth century had a church was built in his honour. He was a pagan performing an anti-Christian satire in front of Diocletian but right at the critical juncture in the play was miraculously remotely controlled by the holy ghost and - behold - became christian on the spot. He was promptly beheaded by Diocletian for his impiety. This story about the fabulous Christian Saint Genesius is obviously bogus, but the issue it brings to the surface is that whoever wrote the late (4th century) martrology of this fabulous Christian Saint Genesius was aware of the existence of public anti-christian satire in the 4th century, and simply turned it to their advantage by the usual christian trick of historical retrojection.

10-25-2009, 04:56 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Like I said, all prayer sounds ridiculous to us infidels, so we might have trouble distinguishing between real prayer and parodies. But look up the Prayer of Jebez. And look up how much money it has raked in, and the cash flowing in to the prosperity gospel hucksters. Still, it looks to me as if Paul is praying for healing and spiritual gifts, not gold and a new chariot.

10-25-2009, 05:24 PM	#10
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	For Christ's sake the author cannot be "Paul". We are dealing with a profile. We have no IP address. The context of the text is not today. We are not talking about a christian and a non christian today, but in the fourth century, when everything was a great deal far more white and black. A massive revolution was taking place. The new testament was at its focus but the revolution was not known for its spirituality. It was known for its persecution and intolerance. These texts (NHC) were buried by the persecutees in order that they might be preserved to us today, safe from the destruction of them by the persecutors. The persecutors were the orthodox christians - the emperors and their minions - at that epoch. With this context in mind I'd like to ask you whether you think that it is possible for you to consider that the author of this "Prayer of Paul" was a non christian. I am not asking you whether you think the author was a non christian, I am asking you whether you are able to entertain the concept at all. These are the texts of "heretics" and "infidels". Paul and the man the church nailed to the cross to keep him became political. How open minded are people? I completely understand that everyone (by default consensus) presumes this to have been authored a "christian". I want to know if anyone here is able to entertain the objective position of considering that this text was in fact not written by a "christian" but in fact by a "non christian", and what the implications of this possibility may be.

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