Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-14-2011, 09:20 PM

USA Today

Quotes from a number of big names in NT studies:

Quote:

Chronology of Christ's last days confuses Christians

* * *

But precision, especially when it comes to the Bible, has been a hallmark of faith for many Christians — especially those who equate truth with historical facts.

Most troubling for these believers is Jesus' own prophecy, recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, that he will rise from the dead after "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Trying to reconcile that prophecy with the Holy Week calendar, ancient Christian theologians such as Gregory of Nyssa and Cyril of Jerusalem counted the eclipse of the sun after Jesus' death as a night, said the Very Rev. John Behr, dean of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary in Yonkers, N.Y.

"Didascalia Apostolorum," a third-century Christian treatise, took a more radical approach.

It proposes that Jesus and his apostles followed a different calendar than other Jews and celebrated the Last Supper on a Tuesday, meaning the crucifixion happened on a Wednesday. Some fringe Christian denominations still promote that theory.

Others dismiss historical revisions and say Jesus simply misspoke.

"To be technical, Jesus made a false prophecy, and that's not something most Christians would want to put that way," said Robert Miller, a professor of religion at Juniata College in Huntingdon, Pa.

hjalti · 04-14-2011, 09:33 PM

Quote:

counted the eclipse of the sun after Jesus' death as a night,

:funny:

spin · 04-14-2011, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Chronology of Christ's last days confuses Christians...

Most troubling for these believers is Jesus' own prophecy, recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, that he will rise from the dead after "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

....

Others dismiss historical revisions and say Jesus simply misspoke.

"To be technical, Jesus made a false prophecy, and that's not something most Christians would want to put that way," said Robert Miller, a professor of religion at Juniata College in Huntingdon, Pa.

A false prophecy from the lips of the savior? It's a wonder that ApostateAbe hasn't turned this into another proof that Jesus musta existed.

:realitycheck:

stephan huller · 04-16-2011, 01:28 AM

The only way I can see that things might have worked is 'the third day' is Aramaic = 'tuesday' and this was used alongside Mark's use of 'after three days' = four. Yes this gets rid of a Sunday resurrection but I am not sure the Quartodecimans cared much about that. The Sunday interest was a Roman thing (see Liber Pontificalis on Victor).

I think the 'eighth day' was counted from 10 Nisan or LGM 1 of Secret Mark. So we would have

Nisan 10 (Ex 12.3) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8) = the eighth day of the Christian Passover

If Clement of Alexandria is to be believed Jesus was crucified on 14 Nisan which was a Friday (?). Saturday is 1, Sunday 2 Monday is 3 and then Tuesday (= 'the third day' יום שלישי) was the resurrection.

The only question is whether one could walk from Bethany on the other side of the Jordan river starting on the morning of Nisan 10 and make it to Jerusalem by Nisan 13 by way of Jericho? Is that enough time? But then again the original Jesus could fly and walk through solid objects (crowds) ...

stephan huller · 04-16-2011, 01:39 AM

I found out that from Bethany by the Jordan to Jericho is about 12 miles, Jericho to Jerusalem is about 17 miles.

I am told that the average person can walk about 3 miles in an hour; soldiers might march 4 miles in an hour. That is a reasonable feat I think.

Vivisector · 04-16-2011, 12:00 PM

It's too bad they didn't go for the real red meat, such as whether the last supper was on the night of preparation (per John) or the passover meal (per Synoptics). It's apparently too much to hope for that they would have taken on the issue of the hopelessly jumbled sequence of events reported for Sunday.

Cheers,

V.

arnoldo · 04-16-2011, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivisector

It's too bad they didn't go for the real red meat, such as whether the last supper was on the night of preparation (per John) or the passover meal (per Synoptics). It's apparently too much to hope for that they would have taken on the issue of the hopelessly jumbled sequence of events reported for Sunday.

Cheers,

V.

Ed Chumney sees no confusion between the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John regarding this issue.

Quote:

Once again, Yeshua ate the Passover (Luke 22:15). You can have a Seder without a Pesach (or Passover lamb), but you cannot have a lamb without a Seder. Also, since Yeshua was the Passover Lamb of G-d (John [Yochanan] 1:29), He had to come to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) from Bethany not only to be the Passover (Pesach) lamb, but also for the Seder (Mark 14:3,12-16). So, Yeshua was having a Passover lamb (Luke 22:15), and it was a Seder. Today, there is no temple (Beit HaMikdash), so the Passover Seder is held on the fifteenth or sixteenth of Nisan. The Seder on the fifteenth is called the First Seder, and the Seder on the sixteenth is called the Second Seder.

In Mark 14:12, it is written, "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the Passover [the Pesach lamb]...." The word translated as first is the Greek word protos, which means "before, earlier, and preceding." Because there was a temple (Beit HaMikdash) in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in the days of Yeshua, the First Seder would be on the fourteenth of Nisan, and the Second Seder on the fifteenth. The Seder could be held on either night. Yeshua had His Passover (Pesach) Seder by midnight on the fourteenth of Nisan (remember that the fourteenth of Nisan begins at sundown, which is roughly six hours prior to midnight), and was crucified the next afternoon at 3:00 p.m., which is still the fourteenth of Nisan.

The high priest (Cohen HaGadol) kills the Passover (Pesach) lamb for the nation of Israel at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan. At sundown, the fifteenth begins, so Yeshua would have to eat His Passover lamb by midnight of the fourteenth of Nisan, which is prior to the time that the high priest kills the Passover lamb for the nation. To further prove this, in John (Yochanan) 18:28, when Yeshua was brought before Pilate, Caiaphas the high priest (Cohen HaGadol) wouldn't enter the judgment hall of the Gentile ruler because he would be defiled and couldn't eat the Passover lamb. So, this event must have taken place on the morning of the fourteenth of Nisan because the high priest had not yet eaten the Passover. If he was defiled, he would be defiled for one day. Since Yeshua had already eaten the Passover by the time He was seized and taken before Caiaphas and Pilate, He had to have eaten the Passover with the disciples on the evening of the fourteenth. Thus, we can see how Yeshua ate a Passover meal and could still fulfill being the Passover Lamb of G-d by being killed at 3:00 p.m. on the fourteenth of Nisan.
THE SEVEN FESTIVALS OF THE MESSIAH

However, what is more startling is why these alleged jumbled gospel accounts was not edited and apparently left as is. Nevertheless, another confusing issue for Christians at least since the beginning of the late second century was exactly when to celebrate Easter/Passover.

Quote:

c A question having arisen among the bishops of Asia whether, according to the Law of Moses, Easter ought to be observed on the 14th of the month, Victor, bishop of the City of Rome and Narcissus of Jerusalem, together with Polycrates and many pastors of the churches, issued a letter stating what seemed likely to them, of which a record survives down to our time.

Jerome, Chronicle (2005) pp.188-332

And of course, during the First Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 the synod failed to put this issue to rest. Instead, the council merely agreed to no longer use the jewish calender to determine the correct date for Easter.

stephan huller · 04-16-2011, 06:57 PM

The question in my mind though is which is more original - i.e. the Easter Sunday or a resurrection on 'the third day' = Tuesday? I think the latter. So too the Jewish lunar calculations of the Passover. How so? We see that Alexandria - the place which had the final word on Easter calculation - continued to use the Jewish calendar into the fourth century. St. Mark's martyrdom still is referenced with a Jewish date in the Coptic history of Severus of Al'Ashmunein.

spin · 04-16-2011, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The question in my mind though is which is more original - i.e. the Easter Sunday or a resurrection on 'the third day' = Tuesday? I think the latter. So too the Jewish lunar calculations of the Passover. How so? We see that Alexandria - the place which had the final word on Easter calculation - continued to use the Jewish calendar into the fourth century. St. Mark's martyrdom still is referenced with a Jewish date in the Coptic history of Severus of Al'Ashmunein.

I gave it a thought, but I don't agree with you. When in the Hebrew bible the phrase "on the third day" is used, do you think it means the third day of the week or the third day after what had just been mentioned? Try Josh 9:17,

[T2]So the Israelites set out and reached their cities on the third day.[/T2]
Or 1 Sam 29:11-30:1,

[T2]So David set out with his men early in the morning, to return to the land of the Philistines.... Now when David and his men came to Ziklag on the third day, the Amalekites... [/T2]
Or 2 Kgs 20:5,

[T2]I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD.[/T2]
Do any of these mean "on Tuesday"? I think they all mean "on the third day (after the stated event)", be it setting out in the first two, or being healed in the third. That's certainly how it is used in Mt 16:21,

[T2]From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.[/T2]
I think that makes it clear that "on the third day" in the gospels is in relation to the death of Jesus.

stephan huller · 04-16-2011, 11:04 PM

But then you have the problem again of a death and burial just before sundown Friday being counted as a 'three day resurrection' a little over 24 - 36 hours later. Also why does Mark say 'after three days'? Obviously one could use 'third day' either as an ordinal value or the name of Tuesday. The most obvious example is the Samaritan calendar's designation of months is identical - i.e. the months have no names, but are designated by ordinal numbers (the first, the second, etc.). This because of course the Torah does not use the foreign names adopted by the Jews.

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04-16-2011, 01:28 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The only way I can see that things might have worked is 'the third day' is Aramaic = 'tuesday' and this was used alongside Mark's use of 'after three days' = four. Yes this gets rid of a Sunday resurrection but I am not sure the Quartodecimans cared much about that. The Sunday interest was a Roman thing (see Liber Pontificalis on Victor). I think the 'eighth day' was counted from 10 Nisan or LGM 1 of Secret Mark. So we would have Nisan 10 (Ex 12.3) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8) = the eighth day of the Christian Passover If Clement of Alexandria is to be believed Jesus was crucified on 14 Nisan which was a Friday (?). Saturday is 1, Sunday 2 Monday is 3 and then Tuesday (= 'the third day' יום שלישי) was the resurrection. The only question is whether one could walk from Bethany on the other side of the Jordan river starting on the morning of Nisan 10 and make it to Jerusalem by Nisan 13 by way of Jericho? Is that enough time? But then again the original Jesus could fly and walk through solid objects (crowds) ...

04-16-2011, 01:39 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I found out that from Bethany by the Jordan to Jericho is about 12 miles, Jericho to Jerusalem is about 17 miles. I am told that the average person can walk about 3 miles in an hour; soldiers might march 4 miles in an hour. That is a reasonable feat I think.

04-16-2011, 12:00 PM	#6
Vivisector Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: KY Posts: 415	It's too bad they didn't go for the real red meat, such as whether the last supper was on the night of preparation (per John) or the passover meal (per Synoptics). It's apparently too much to hope for that they would have taken on the issue of the hopelessly jumbled sequence of events reported for Sunday. Cheers, V.

04-16-2011, 06:57 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The question in my mind though is which is more original - i.e. the Easter Sunday or a resurrection on 'the third day' = Tuesday? I think the latter. So too the Jewish lunar calculations of the Passover. How so? We see that Alexandria - the place which had the final word on Easter calculation - continued to use the Jewish calendar into the fourth century. St. Mark's martyrdom still is referenced with a Jewish date in the Coptic history of Severus of Al'Ashmunein.

04-16-2011, 11:04 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	But then you have the problem again of a death and burial just before sundown Friday being counted as a 'three day resurrection' a little over 24 - 36 hours later. Also why does Mark say 'after three days'? Obviously one could use 'third day' either as an ordinal value or the name of Tuesday. The most obvious example is the Samaritan calendar's designation of months is identical - i.e. the months have no names, but are designated by ordinal numbers (the first, the second, etc.). This because of course the Torah does not use the foreign names adopted by the Jews.

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