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Old 08-09-2006, 12:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874
Mountainman, I would like to know how Torrens deals with the council of Nicea, Marcion, Arius, Lucian and any other historian pre 4th century. I am still inclined to think that the Gospels were of different authors, possibly interpolated and edited by Eusebius and were written at least by the 2nd century. Of course, I could be wrong, but I would really like to see how Torrens deal with those issues.
So would I. So far I can only find general abstracts of his work,
and these all in Spanish. If I find out any more details, I'll post
them here.



Pete
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Old 10-31-2006, 03:36 AM   #12
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Some of the google auto-translation-engines are getting slightly better.
The following is still very primitive, however we begin to perceive some
of the details of the claims being made:

From the auto-translated page:

Presentation of “Simón, operates magna”

The moment has arrived for presenting something that takes being developed five years, the secret better kept from History: How our religion was born.

One has always said that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, that were the Son of God come to the Earth to redeem the Humanity, that founded the Church, whose visible heads to us would be Pedro and his successors, and thousand things more. Then, studying texts of our religion and basing to me only on them, I have gotten to discover how, when, by whom and so that the Christianity was created. And the things are not as it were always said to us. And, which is more important, they have been left documentary evidences of the process by means of which our religion was born.

The process and the tests are explained of clear way in the book “Simón, operates magna”, whose exclusive corner will be this new section. The scheme of this process goes ahead.

* The four Gospels are accepted that they were written by Mateo, Marks, Lucas and Juan.

* Without defining the year, but the Gospels would have seen the light in century I.

* All the previous one is false. Really, the four Gospels are work of the same person. All the New Testament is work of that person.

* That person did not live in century I. Lived and wrote the New Testament in century IV.

* That person was against falsification that saw forced to make, so that it dynamited the building that was constructing and it did it signing each phrase that incorporated to “Christian sacred writings”, the ones that soon would say that they were word of God.

* Its company/signature consists of five letters, the ones of “Simón”.

* In four Gospels there are 2,000 companies of Simón, one after another one. In the rest of the New Testament (epistles of Pablo, Facts, Apocalypse, etc.) there are other 2,500 companies more. In all the New Testament, around 4,500 companies.

* It has been located, by means of the method of the companies, to Simón. Was Eusebio de Cesárea, served “loyal” as Constantino Emperor.

* Constantino Emperor did not become to the Christianity, ordered it. The Christianity is the religion that Constantino wished for its Empire. And it sent it to create.

I already know that the news is chilling, tremendous. It gives that to think. The book contains in addition some reflections on the manipulation, the characteristics of a manipulation done of almost perfect way and, which is more interesting, the form to avoid the manipulations that surround to us. Form that, of pure simple, almost happens unnoticed.

I resign to summarize a book in the extension that must have this presentation. Our friend visitor has the first chapter of the book to his disposition. He is enough that he does click here
The text from this second page, referred to a the first chapter,
when run through the auto-tranlsator is as follows:
Chapter first





I.1. Introduction.

He is always painful to break an illusion. And he is always pleasant to generate illusions. Perhaps this book breaks illusions and creates other new ones. Let us see so that. There are two pillars on which to a great extent our society has been based. One is our democratic system, inheritance of our Greek ancestors. The other is our Christianity, inheritance of… of whom? Where sink their roots our beliefs? It is what we are going to see throughout the pages of the book.

If we said to the reader who all the beliefs that lodge on the life, the death and the objective of the life are based on the false news. And that the beliefs that allows that they inculquen to his children or grandsons are also based on falsifications. If we demonstrated of documentary way that all the fundamental texts of the Christianity are an immense falsification, made 300 years after dying Jesus, that would not be the worse thing.

I know that it sounds stranger, but the worse thing is not than falsifications are taught to us from the cradle. The worse thing is than the way has been hidden to us to make the objective of our existence. And it is continued hiding to us. The objective of our existence is the Evolution, the Fullness and the Happiness. And it is continued hiding the way to us to reach those goals.

It is possible to be affirmed now that there are been subject to an ideological manipulation that is almost impossible to imagine. Let us expose it to the reader of summarized way:

Sab*a the reader who the four Gospels were written by the same person and who that person was born more than 200 years after the death of Jesus in the cross?

Sab*a the reader who the Christianity was the religion that Constantino imposed to all its Empire, that this Emperor ordered to write all the New Testament and that before Constantino nobody knew that he was that of the Christianity?

Sab*a the reader who the author of Gospels signed the falsification that was making, to leave a test that the four Gospels were work hers? We will see in this book several dozens of companies hers, one after another one. Thousands exist, in all Christian sacred texts.

Sab*a the reader that never existed neither Pedro, nor Pablo, nor Mateo, nor Lucas, nor Marks, nor Judas Iscariote, nor Maria Magdalena, nor almost none of the personages who appear in Gospels or the New Testament? All the references to these personages were composed and signed by a same person, the falsifier.

Sab*a the reader who never were persecutions against the Christians, simply because the Christianity was invented in the century fourth, by order of Constantino, and that either were no martyrs who underwent them?

Realizes the reader of which is a done manipulation proper?

I.2. The falsification.

Adentrémonos in the greater falsification than has known History. The same one in a while begins dice of the mandate of Constantino, Emperor who governed the Roman Empire from year 306 to the 336, in which died. Constantino was son of Constancio, that was coemperor designated by Diocleciano very at the end of century III. Towards year 312 the idea that arose in the mind of Constantino the Empire would be more united if all their subjects had the same beliefs. And one seted out to unify the religion of his vast Empire.

At that time, the existing religions in the Empire were the own ones of each conquered territory. Egypt had contributed its pantheon, with Amón-Ra, Isis, Osiris and Horus. Greece, his, with Zeus, Hera, Poseidón and other Gods and goddesses. In addition to it, Greece contributed the Wisdom of its Teachers, who there are to know in this book. Rome had its Gods, headed by the Tr*ada Capitolina de Jupiter, Juno and Minerva. And thus, each region incorporated to the Empire. In the days of Constantino they enjoyed great predilection the mistéricos cults and among them those Orfeo, Thracian God, those of the Greek Diónisos, those of Atis and Cibeles, frigios, those of Isis and the Osiris, Greek, those of the Iranian Mitra and some others, as the mysteries of Eleusis or the hidden knowledge of Hermes.

Before Constantino, all the Emperors, and who governed during the Republic, before becoming Rome Empire, even respected the beliefs of the conquered towns. This tolerance had facilitated the coexistence. To all the previous Emperors it had been enough to them with governing on the territories incorporated to the Empire. Constantino wanted in addition to model the consciences of its subjects. The repercussions of similar mistake were going to exceed the best forecasts of Constantino and of those who helped him.

Before the great task to make, to unify the religion of the Empire, Constantino it was surrounded by a reduced team of people. First it was to make specific the way to take to good term the plans of the Emperor. For it it was left that the new religion would not be none of the effective ones, but a new one determined, created by the members of this equipment and that would receive the approval of the own Emperor. But a religion just created, without historical base some, was not the adopted solution. The religion did not have to be new, but old, with a prestigious tradition. Therefore, it was necessary to create sacred books, supposedly writings centuries back. And it was decided not only to invent a new religion, but to equip it with a respectable history, a heroic tradition. It would make it more attractive for the town. It would be created to him, then, a beautiful history. Everything was possible, counting on the imperial support. The Emperor would favor the new religion and he would construct new and impressive temples to him, greater than the already existing ones.

In addition to beliefs and temples, the creation of a new religion implied to create new a chaste one of priests, those that would start up the rites that wrapped and gave body to this religion, within the temples to construct. It would be necessary to equip with new history chaste the sacerdotal one, with a glorious history and respectable. And to generate in addition a series to fictitious personages, who had left writings on the invented religion, in order to give tradition of centuries to the assembly that was going away to start up at that time.

Those ideas that they urged the citizen to reflect by itself and to feel as independent as to even criticize to the imperial power would be extirpated without contemplations. Absolute war to the Greek Knowledge, source of all evils. The Greeks, noncontentments with the Gods of the Mount Olympus, had scattered the idea that the humans locked up a divine seed, who, said, inspired to the best ones of among them. All critical capacity had to be absolutely prohibited. It was necessary to return docile, passive, with a complex, humble and ignorantes to the citizens. The goal of its life would be a prize after the death. A religion would be created, with the most tempting plates of the moment. And the rites would be included in the new religion that were fashionable in the Empire, in special the mysteries, so of the taste of the town.

In addition, and like fundamental ingredient, the particular phobia that Constantino felt towards the Jews. These had been rebelled by twice against Rome. If other towns imitated to them, there would not be legions sufficient to defend the borders of the Empire. It took to choose like central personage of the new religion to a Jew, executed by the solicitor of Judea. One would take the blame to the Jewish town of deicidio, because, of course, the founding assumption of the new religion would have been the Son of God. It would have founded a church, the one that Constantino was going to create, would have instituted the rites that Constantino and its equipment were going to invent and would have affirmed that hers it was the only true religion and that all the one that did not believe in her would undergo eternal condemnation. For it, a punishment adapted to the horrible crime would be invented to disobey the Emperor.

To Constantino the smaller doubt did not fit to him of than the new religion would fall like a balsam on disturbed citizens and with different beliefs. And all the Empire, united by the new religion, would fight like a single man against the outer dangers that they threatened the continuity of the Empire and its Emperor, Constantino.

To the faithful futures, the only thing that would be demanded to them to enter in the new imperial religion would be to have faith, to accept the established thing by the founding equipment. The faith would be glorified, fundamental, key virtue of the shed, first between the virtues of the faithful citizen who Constantino wanted. The faith would be a gift of God. Special emphasis would become in which all the related one in sacred books was true truth. And it would be erased of proud and magnificent to all that one that did not give its conformity to the assembly. In addition, it would be repeated incessantly, God rejects to the magnificent ones.

Before us, the fundamental ideas of the constantiniano assembly. We need to meet who started up the spectacular discovered plot. And we will have to also know the documentary evidences that whatever we are exposing is not fruit of the imagination, but undeniable reality.

I.3. The members of the equipment.

To look for the head of the equipment will be easy task, the own Constantino like main motor. In a similar subject, to implant a unique religion in all the Empire, nothing could become without the initiative of the Emperor. It is certain that the work of Constantino was not to designate its allowed religion like the only one. It had been to run too much. This function would be reserved to a later, Hispanic Emperor, to Teodosio. Both will pass to history like Constantino Grande and Teodosio the Great one. History will write the medieval monks, members of chaste the sacerdotal one created by Constantino.

It is enough with reading the history of the Christianity in the days of Constantino to encounter immediately over his adviser over religious subjects, Osio. Considering that the equipment that we will describe constructed history to its measurement, it will be necessary to have extreme well-taken care of in not letting itself only deceive and give by historical what totally it is confirmed. That Osio was a real, historical person, and who accompanied to Constantino in its ideological trajectory he is something amply proven.

Good it will be to advance the character of Osio to include/understand the reasons for his election. Osio was a person very understood in Jewish Scriptures, lover of detail, equipped with great memory, without scruples, authoritarian and obsequioso with the power. But also, not too cultured, creative and very little impulsive. It was first of the described characteristics, his the Hebrew dominion of the Law and Prophets, which hoisted to him to the position of main adviser of Constantino Emperor. Because that was what Constantino needed.

Under the direction of Osio, badly the sacred books of the new religion had been written. Osio was badly a literato one. For the great amount of writings to generate a professional writer was needed. Constantino counted between its closer circle with one and of first row, with Eusebio de Cesárea. He would be the material author of all whichever outside necessary one to write. And in the same way that Constantino was an experienced general in the battlefield, within his equipment he established the hierarchy with dazzling clarity. The basic ideas of the falsification to make would be those of Osio. Certain that such ideas were inspired by the objectives that Constantino had been marked. Like Osio it was not an suitable literato, the writing of such ideas is the responsibility of Eusebio.

Well, reader, now we had to speak of the third member of the equipment, of Eusebio de Cesárea. Nevertheless, we will not do it. Its work we are going to see it by far more detail within two chapters. This one was the exposition that by year 312 of ours was there was decided in the Rome that was going to be eternal. Not even their promoters got to imagine the reach of their creation. Because, as the reader knows, the religious unit of the Empire did not prevent that this one outside knocked down by the towns beyond its borders. But the culture of the Roman town era far beyond the one of the conquerors and ended up prevailing. Constantino and its partisans could not anticipate that the West that would arise from the conquered Empire was the future going to be power that would govern the empires that History would see. Nor that its work was going to less have nothing 1,700 years of use.

I.4. The made work.

The plan worked of perfect way, in spite of a great failure that locked up. Failure that would be discovered 1,700 years later. However, to deceive all the Empire and all the western society during 17 centuries, is necessary to recognize that a profit is everything.

We are in Rome. Year six of the reign of Constantino runs (year 312 of ours was). Constantino has started off for the border and has left reunited to Osio and to Eusebio. Both reunite the material of which they must start off. One is three small books that contain everything what it was left writing of the crucificado Jewish Teacher almost three centuries ago. The writing in the first place was a collection of this of the Teacher, compiled by one of its disciples, of Tomás name. There was another collection of reflections, this one of a certain Felipe. They were not said of the Teacher, but conclusions at which Felipe had arrived with time.

The third writing was more interesting, was a biographical writing. Written up by one of the disciples, Juan name, it gathered a sample of the lessons of that Jewish Teacher who died young. Osio did not know any the books that Eusebio had in their particular library. Eusebio, on the contrary, knew them perfectly. And the three had a great value for him.

He is he whom it had suggested to Constantino which they could be based on the Jewish Teacher, since Constantino was determined to make take part to the Jews in history. So that the plan happened to be based on such history and to construct over her the religion that wanted Constantino. But for it a drastic transformation was precise, because as much the original story of Juan like the other two collections of sayings was texts of Wisdom, the same Wisdom that the explained one by the Greek Teachers, the component that did not wish the Emperor in its new religion.

In a text of Wisdom the way is described that the human must cross to obtain the permanent happiness, its accomplishment like being human plenary session. The Teachers defend who the objective of the Earth human being is to culminate its evolution and to reach the Fullness. And a text of Wisdom indicates the way to obtain it. All the Teachers affirm that such work is laborious and agree in the definition of he himself and its utility. One denominates Teachers to those who have reached this goal.

The equipment considered the best way to carry out the plan of the Emperor. And they decided that they would create more stories on the life and the doctrine of the Jewish Teacher. Altogether they would do four, sensibly similarities, although nonequal. They rejected books of sayings both, given its simplicity. It seemed better to create biographical writings. In addition, Eusebio was historian and to create histories occurred him well.

In the first place they would use as the sayings of Takings to create its own history of the Jewish Teacher. They used for it inoffensive sayings or, rather, fragments that did not contain Wisdom. They gave thus forms to a new biography of the Teacher, choosing everything what it heightened humility, of which the last ones will be first, which would be used against the Jews and in favor of the own Romans. In this way a biographical writing composed Eusebio on the Jewish Teacher. This writing had a strange quality, to the eyes of Osio: He was isometric, that is to say, all their chapters had six phrases. Eusebio had composed the document bases of which the equipment would bequeath to the posterity like Gospel according to Marks. Rather, according to San Marcos, since the falsifying equipment of Christian sacred texts was going to invent the new concept of sanctity, honor that would be granted to those who helped to extend the deceit. Marks document base figure on point 1 of the Annex. Téngase in account that he himself is complete work of the team of falsifiers. There was no called personage Marks that wrote it. For that reason it calls document to him bases and nonMarks original. And that it difference of original Juan, since this writing yes that it has to Juan by author, being Juan an existing, historical personage.

Eusebio showed Osio that also the story of Juan was isometric, with all the chapters of ten lines. It was a way with which the author made sure that nobody would add something to the original text. If it did, one of the chapters would not have 10 lines already and the reader the notary's office. There would be false lines in this chapter. And possibly it would be possible to be deduced which.

Then Eusebio explained to him to Osio that that was habitual in ideological writings of the time, to place defenses to protect writings. He explained to him that several Psalms of Jewish Scriptures initiated each paragraph by the letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Osio did not know it. Osio used to use the translation to the Greek of the Hebrew Torá (what we know like Septuaginta, a translation of the Hebrew to the Greek, done in Egypt almost six hundred years before). Eusebio, however, read the Hebrew and she understood it.

It continues in the book, reader.

I have emailed the author to request whether any purposeful
english translations of any of his work has yet been done.

In the meantime, if you'd like to try and make sense of his claims
by the above, please feel welcome to comment.


Pete Brown
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Old 10-31-2006, 09:16 AM   #13
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Interesting find, an English translation would be great. I get the impression that the kernel of the above is the following from the summary:
Quote:
* That person was against falsification that saw forced to make, so that it dynamited the building that was constructing and it did it signing each phrase that incorporated to “Christian sacred writings”, the ones that soon would say that they were word of God.

* Its company/signature consists of five letters, the ones of “Simón”.
Translated, Eusebius wasn't too happy with the falsifications he was forced to commit, and sabotaged the whole deal by inserting the word "Simon" wherever he falsified/inserted something. Does that meake any sense? You could have a look at all the Simons...

Gerard
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:19 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by gstafleu View Post
Interesting find, an English translation would be great.

Probably indespensible.


Quote:
I get the impression that the kernel of the above is the following from the summary:

Translated, Eusebius wasn't too happy with the falsifications he was forced to commit, and sabotaged the whole deal by inserting the word "Simon" wherever he falsified/inserted something. Does that meake any sense? You could have a look at all the Simons...

Gerard

This "Simon" word appears central to the thesis, and appears to
relate to the greek. Perhaps the author is working from a particular
manuscript or codex, but if not, it perhaps relates to the arrangment
of letters (or words) per line in the greek, but I am only guessing.

I will post further info here, if forthcoming from the author.

Best wishes,



Pete
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Perhaps the author is working from a particular
manuscript or codex, but if not, it perhaps relates to the arrangment
of letters (or words) per line in the greek, but I am only guessing.
Yes, he mentions acrostics, which would indicate that. To find that you would need a file with the NT in Greek, and then write a program that finds consecutive words starting with s,i,m,o,n (in Greek).

Gerard
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Old 01-23-2007, 05:34 AM   #16
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There is now a picture of the (acrostic?) method
by which this author can be seen to make his claim.
It seems as if he has loaded some more data on
his webpage: www.sofiaoriginals.com.
Its all in Spanish.

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Old 01-23-2007, 10:25 AM   #17
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This does not look too promising. First of all, he finds the acronym both in the Greek and in a Spanish translation. Unless he shows the Spanish as just an example, this is total nonsense. In the Greek the acronym seems to be located with respect to the end of the sentence. Dubious to start with, as the MS's don't have punctuation, so the concept "sentence" is not well-defined. Ignoring that, it seems the first four letters are at position 10 from the end, the final N is at 12 (spaces don't count as the MS's don't have them). Now unless that is the general rule for all occurrences of SIMON, this looks like may pick his SIMONs as he may find them.

I scanned the web page, I didn't see anything about method. Now I don't speak Spanish, so I could easily have missed it. What I find also rather ominous is the inclusion of all these newspaper clippings.

Gerard Stafleu
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:58 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by gstafleu View Post
This does not look too promising. First of all, he finds the acronym both in the Greek and in a Spanish translation. Unless he shows the Spanish as just an example, this is total nonsense. In the Greek the acronym seems to be located with respect to the end of the sentence. Dubious to start with, as the MS's don't have punctuation, so the concept "sentence" is not well-defined. Ignoring that, it seems the first four letters are at position 10 from the end, the final N is at 12 (spaces don't count as the MS's don't have them). Now unless that is the general rule for all occurrences of SIMON, this looks like may pick his SIMONs as he may find them.
Not to mention that Torrens (or apparently Eusebius) doesn't know how Simon was spelled in Greek and is picking letters for the acrostic that do not fit his (Torrens') claim . The name Simon was spelled with an omega not, as Torrens claims, an omicron, let alone an aspirated omicron. It is Σίμων not Σίμον.

So once again we see Pete unable to tell good scholarship from bad scholarship (if one can call the drivel he points us to "scholarship") or to evaluate the worth of, and the linguistic claims made by, the sources he adduces in support of his claims; we also see that his criterion for determining that something is a good source has nothing to do with its quality. Rather, it's that it fits what he wants to believe.

Jeffrey Gibson
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Old 01-23-2007, 06:27 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
The above named professor of the University of the Rioja, Spain
Is Torrens actually a professor at this university? If so, in what department?

Jeffrey Gibson
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgibson000 View Post
Is Torrens actually a professor at this university?
Si


Quote:
If so, in what department?
If I am reading this website correctly, his degree is in Industrial Engineering. :huh:

ETA: FYI, that is a translated version of the original so don't hold the writing against him.
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