Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 12-09-2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil List

Let me ask a simple question: 1 Samuel 15:1-3. This says:

'Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "

What you read above is not God allowing an atrocity to take place. It is God COMMANDING that an atrocity take place. The slaughter of an entire people. In modern parlance this is ethnic cleansing. Thousands of men, women, CHILDREN and INFANTS were to be systematically exterminated by Saul at God's specific instruction. As you read on you find that all the amalekite men, women, children and infants were subsequently exterminated but the animals were taken as plunder. This displeased God who showed no displeasure at the butchering of women, children and babies but was so enraged that his commands had not been executed to the letter that he removed the kingship of Israel from Saul and gave it to David.

This is an accurate portrayal of the biblical account. So to those who believe that this is the word of God and an accurate history of God's actions:

1. State that you agree that your God commanded and oversaw the extermination of men, women, children and babies.
2. State that you agreed that this was the action of a loving God.
3. Please spend some time rationalising how the old testament ethnic cleansing was not in fact ethnic cleansing because the people cleansed would have been SO evil that there would have been no redemption for them and their children even their babies so tainted by evil that there would have been no point in sparing them. After all a sword through a babies head is a particularly humane way of dispatching a baby isn't it? Better than having them starve to death in a city full of dead men and women. Wasn't it? Shame that there weren't any gas chambers or barbed wire back then. Wouldn't have had to get all that disgusting amalekite blood on those Israelite swords and baby brains is hard to remove from Israelite armour.

Mind you, overall, baby brains and disembowelled and beheaded children aside God was actually quite nice wasn't he? I understand that Stalin was very nice to his Grandchildren. Shame about the 17 million odd people that he killed but his family thought he was great.

1. State that you agree that your God commanded and oversaw the extermination of men, women, children and babies.

I agree with this. God had done it earlier in the destruction of the world during the time of Noah. We are told that God will do it again at the last day when He will destroy the earth.

2. State that you agreed that this was the action of a loving God.

This was the action of a loving God - who is also a God of judgment. God expresses His love for people through His warnings of the judgment to come. Following those warnings comes the judgment.

3. Please spend some time rationalising how the old testament ethnic cleansing was not in fact ethnic cleansing because the people cleansed would have been SO evil that there would have been no redemption for them and their children even their babies so tainted by evil that there would have been no point in sparing them.

Each individual (even babies) will stand before God to be judged. When that happens and the means by which it happens are under God's control. In the past it happened through a flood, destruction of cities (Sodom/Gomorrah), through war. It can also happen through cancer, car accidents, genetic defects, and a variety of ways. God has divided the world into believers and non-believers. He will ultimately cleanse the world of non-believers. I guess that qualifies as ethnic cleansing.

djrafikie · 12-09-2006, 03:20 PM

"It can also happen through cancer, car accidents, genetic defects, and a variety of ways. "

<edit>

christian my arse.

And yes MOD'S, I know thats naughty, but come ON.
This abuse will not occur again as I have put Rhutchin on ignore for the next two weeks. This kind of bollocks is more than I can tolerate.

Amaleq13 · 12-09-2006, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

2. State that you agreed that this was the action of a loving God.

This was the action of a loving God - who is also a God of judgment. God expresses His love for people through His warnings of the judgment to come. Following those warnings comes the judgment.

He loves you (and, presumably, every other Christian) enough that he had those people killed as a warning?

Where was the love for them?

Quote:

Each individual (even babies) will stand before God to be judged.

For what can a baby be judged?

Quote:

God has divided the world into believers and non-believers.

By giving faith only to some?

Quote:

He will ultimately cleanse the world of non-believers.

Why wait?

Doug Shaver · 12-10-2006, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

This was the action of a loving God - who is also a God of judgment. God expresses His love for people through His warnings of the judgment to come.

When you tell us these things, do you speak infallibly?

lpetrich · 12-10-2006, 12:08 PM

rhutchin, so whole populations are to be subjected to some Final Solution? Yes, genocide, as in what parts like Deut. 7 command for the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, and as Joshua's armies faithfully carried out.

The eminent theologian St. Augustine had maintained in his Confessions (Bk. 1, Ch. 7) that babies are terrible sinners, guilty of gluttony, jealousy, etc. But why were every one of the Hittite, Girgashite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite and Jebusite babies to be killed but not most other babies? What terrible sins had those babies committed that most others have not?

militant agnostic · 12-19-2006, 12:12 PM

<edit> You basically addmited on the christianity and homosexuality thread that your belief in the Bible was based entirely on faith and that there was a possibility that you believe in the wrong God.

Then you come here and tell us that God is well within his rights to kill everyone who rejected him because he gave us prophecy and revelation and all that. As if the fact that God exists and that he is God of the Bible is a plainly obvious fact that everyone on Earth should know as common knowlede on every corner of the world because facts and history plainly tells us so.

So which is it? Is God a being that can only be known by faith or is he a being whose existance is plainly obvious and the only reason we unbelivers don't see him is because werew playing a game of denial? You have gone back and foreth on what kind of God he is on these forums a zillion times.

Every time we discuss whether or not we should believe in and follow the Bible you just say stuff like "If God is anything other than the God of the Bible we have no way of knowing". Your beliefs become safe behind a veil of it being a faith based religion that can not be touched by the facts.

But when its time for judgment day you act like God should be belived in because he is an undeniable historical fact. Like were denying WWII.

What God is he?

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12-09-2006, 03:20 PM	#2
djrafikie Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: u.k, back of beyond, we have scones and cream teas Posts: 2,534	"It can also happen through cancer, car accidents, genetic defects, and a variety of ways. " <edit> christian my arse. And yes MOD'S, I know thats naughty, but come ON. This abuse will not occur again as I have put Rhutchin on ignore for the next two weeks. This kind of bollocks is more than I can tolerate.

12-10-2006, 12:08 PM	#5
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	rhutchin, so whole populations are to be subjected to some Final Solution? Yes, genocide, as in what parts like Deut. 7 command for the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, and as Joshua's armies faithfully carried out. The eminent theologian St. Augustine had maintained in his Confessions (Bk. 1, Ch. 7) that babies are terrible sinners, guilty of gluttony, jealousy, etc. But why were every one of the Hittite, Girgashite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite and Jebusite babies to be killed but not most other babies? What terrible sins had those babies committed that most others have not?

12-19-2006, 12:12 PM	#6
militant agnostic Regular Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 291	<edit> You basically addmited on the christianity and homosexuality thread that your belief in the Bible was based entirely on faith and that there was a possibility that you believe in the wrong God. Then you come here and tell us that God is well within his rights to kill everyone who rejected him because he gave us prophecy and revelation and all that. As if the fact that God exists and that he is God of the Bible is a plainly obvious fact that everyone on Earth should know as common knowlede on every corner of the world because facts and history plainly tells us so. So which is it? Is God a being that can only be known by faith or is he a being whose existance is plainly obvious and the only reason we unbelivers don't see him is because werew playing a game of denial? You have gone back and foreth on what kind of God he is on these forums a zillion times. Every time we discuss whether or not we should believe in and follow the Bible you just say stuff like "If God is anything other than the God of the Bible we have no way of knowing". Your beliefs become safe behind a veil of it being a faith based religion that can not be touched by the facts. But when its time for judgment day you act like God should be belived in because he is an undeniable historical fact. Like were denying WWII. What God is he?

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