hatsoff

You have grossly distorted the story of Socrates. He was tried for preaching philosophies which ran counter to the state religion. The charge of "corrupting the youth" stemmed from that offense. Also, he did not mock the jury, but simply joked about what his punishment should be. That reflected poorly on him, as it displayed his disrespect for the proceedings.

He did have a large ego, I would imagine, and it definitely seems to have played a role in his execution. And that is not the only difference between the two men, either. In fact, every martyr has a unique set of experiences which sets him or her apart from all others. Yet those differences do not make Socrates any more or less of a martyr than Jesus. So I'm not sure how you can believe what you said about Jesus being the first "true martyr."

Elijah

Moderator said we can’t talk about this anymore… yay freedom!

You failed to mention what Socrates beliefs were that he died for like I asked.

You say joking, I say mocking.

David B

By many accounts, Jesus would seem to have believed that he was chosen by god to do all sorts of amazing things.

If Socrates had a large ego - as I suppose he did - the only difference between them that I can see, is that Socrates' large ego was pushed into insignificance by that of Jesus.

David B (Thinks David Koresh, Jim Jones, Sai Baba, Charles Manson, Joe Smith.... were far from devoid of of ego, either

hatsoff

I think they just split the thread if the topic veers.

That is because they are irrelevant. However, you can get a general overview here at wikipedia. If your question is meant to be leading, there is no reason to beat around the bush, so to speak; just tell me where you want to go.

Yes, yes... it's the same thing, except that you accused Socrates of mocking the jury, whereas the true target of his disrespect was the proceedings. And anyway, it really doesn't matter. These differences between Jesus and Socrates, whatever they might be, do not make either man the only "true" martyr.

windsofchange

No, the moderator did not say you can't talk about this anymore. What the moderator asked was, please get back to the topic raised in the OP.

Thanks for your cooperation!

Elijah

Well the claim everyone is trying to make is that Socrates and Jesus are the same because they were both killed for the beliefs they were teaching so the question of what are the beliefs that Socrates died for is completely relevant.

I don’t think Socrates respected the jury or the proceedings in any way shape or form and that lack of respect cost him his life.

Depends on how you use the word martyr. Like I said you can call everyone you want a Martyr but your going to have to apply another word to what Jesus was trying to pull off.

hatsoff

Elijah, no one is denying that the two men were very different, but they are both martyrs, by *any* definition of the word. At least, I can't imagine a definition which would include Jesus but exclude Socrates. And while one could go around calling every last Tom, Dick and Harry a martyr, he would not be justified in doing so--just as you are not justified to say that Socrates was not a martyr.

What's strange is that the point is more or less technical, a disagreement over definitions. I would imagine most everyone here can see the differences between the two individuals. In his own way, each made an incredible and unique impression on history and society. Obviously, Jesus' influence has far outpaced Socrates', but that is no rub against the latter.

Malachi151

Elijah:

Would you die to save the world?

Would you die in the name of free speech?

Which is really the bigger sacrifice?

Nevermind the fact that Socrates' martyrdom was real, while Jesus' is part of a mythical drama.

Elijah

Well if you want to understand why the early Christians were so eager to martyr themselves then you’re going to need to be able to see the difference between what Socrates or anyone else had done at the time and what Christ did. What Christ did was new and unique to them and like good little monkeys they imitated his actions. They imitated his self sacrifice.

Just like the children imitated Socrates in the talking in endlessly dumb questions testing people.

You may not be able to see the significance of the difference between the two but the early Christians certainly seemed to.

David B

Sorry, I'm going to answer on my own account.

I'd rather not be put into that position by circumstance. But I like to think that, were I in the position of those atheistic Russians who tried to limit the bad effects of Chernobyl, at risk of my life, t hen I wouldn't have been found wanting.

Not on purpose. But if I were Salman Rushdie, I wouldn't regret writing The Satanic Verses, and inadvertantly putting my life at risk.

I somehow find a reasonably modern day example coming to mind. An atheist revolutionary who won. Achieved high office, a comfortable lifestyle. Gave it up, went to fight (IMO wrongly, but in his rightly) for the benefit of the downtrodden in another country.

And was killed in cold blood, without trial.

Che

David B