Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-20-2005, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Actually not. I heard a talk by a Greek Orthodox priest who was quite proud to claim that the Greek Orthodox Church incorporated the best of classical Greek thought.

Yes, of course. This obviously does not suggest, however, that Jesus was only a composite of previous Greek concepts instead of a flesh and blood person.

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 04:19 AM

Can we take this a step at a time?

First are their direct quotes from Seneca in the New Testament?

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 04:31 AM

From

http://www.carotta.de/forum/messages/780.html

(Part of a discussion on carotta's website - apologies if copyright.)

Quote:

Re: Buch Jesus = Cäsar - Josephus Flavius und Paulus

[ Antworten ] [ Forum www.carotta.de ]
Abgeschickt von Paul Trejo am 17 Juni, 2002 um 21:54:36

Antwort auf: Re: Buch Jesus = Cäsar - Josephus Flavius und Paulus von F.C. am 16 Juni, 2002 um 10:06:03:

Dear Francesco Carotta and Andreas Klös,

I believe I might forward some of Bruno Bauer's evidence about the appearance of the Stoic philosopher Seneca’s words in the writings of St. Paul. Perhaps we can speculate whether Josephus, who had easy access to the writings of Seneca, simply felt free to incorporate Seneca's Stoic ideas into his own prose. After all, Josephus said that Stoics were most like Pharisees in moral habits, so such a borrowing would seem permissible.

However, I am not ready to find only one single writer of any of the books of the New Testament. Anglo-European theological scholarship in the past 50 years has nearly unanimously agreed that every book in the New Testament is the product of a separate collective - a writing Community.

Even the Epistles of St. Paul were modified over several generations. I am not ready to seek the final redactor of any given book - I will be satisfied to find the original Community and its Situation in Life (Sitz im Leben).

Many 20th century NT scholars focused on the Jewish Communities and defined them in a mostly orthodox way. There was a century-long obsession with that Sadduccees library cache, the Dead Sea Scrolls. The 19th century had a more well-rounded scholarship, I think, and was willing to pursue this study of the Greco-Roman influences on the earliest Christian communities and upon the final redactors of the New Testament texts.

This brings me back to Bruno Bauer. Actually, we should be getting back to the topic of this web site, namely, the identification of the sources of the Earliest Gospel. So I will try to bend the thread back to our original starting point:

1. Dear Andreas Klös, your analysis of the book of ROMANS is indeed promising – yet one cannot say if Josephus had a direct hand in it or was only one of the many sources used to write this Epistle. Perhaps Josephus was already dead when the final redactor to ROMANS took up the pen, as the Dutch Critics claim. As Francesco Carotta noted, your theory is not incompatible with his theory, since evidently nobody disputes that a Roman citizen to some degree familiar with Jewish as well as Roman literature, wrote ROMANS.

2. As for the Earliest Gospel, since most scholars today agree that MARK was the first of the four canonical Gospels, much scholarship in the past 100 years has gone towards analyzing the origins of every part of the Gospel According to MARK.

3. Francesco Carotta has impressed many with his keen observations regarding the similarities between the Markan Passion narrative (MARK 11-16) and the literature of the cult of Divine Julius.

4. I would like to share three excerpts from Bruno Bauer (1877) as he encountered a Markan influence in Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4 CE - 65 CE), tutor of Nero, betrayer of Nero, and perhaps the most prolific writer among the Stoic philosophers. Here they are:

(a) As a Stoic of the Greek tradition, Seneca wrote about sin and the need for a redeeming principle of forgiveness, saying,

"Some sins we have committed, some we have
contemplated, some we have desired, some we
have encouraged, and in some cases we are
innocent only because we did not succeed.
Bearing this in mind, let us be more just
to transgressors, more heedful to those who
rebuke us." (Seneca, ON ANGER, ca. 40 AD)

Very similar terms appear in MARK, viz.:

"When you stand in prayer, forgive whatever
you have against anybody, so that the
Spirit may forgive your failings, too."
(MARK 11:25, ca. 70 AD)

(b) Seneca applied stylistic expressions to encourage Stoic followers to cease their grasping at the material world. He said:

"Cast away all riches if you are wise; no,
rather, that you may be wise. If any bond
holds you back, untangle it or just cut it
off." (Seneca, EPISTLE 17, ca. 40 AD)

Again, very similar terms appear in MARK, viz.:

"And if your hand should cause you to sin,
cut it off...And if your eye should cause
you to sin, pluck it out."
(MARK 9:43-47, ca. 70 AD)

(c) Seneca the Stoic also accepted the Immortality of the Soul. In his consolation to Marcia who grieved the loss of her men to war, Seneca wrote:

"There is no need for you to hurry to the
tomb of your son...he has fled away and
wholly departed from earth...soared aloft
and sped away to join the souls of the
blessed. A saintly band gave him welcome."
(Seneca, EPISTLE TO MARCIA, ca. 40 AD)

Very similar terms appear in MARK, viz.:

"There is no need for alarm. You are
looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was
crucified. He has risen. He is not here."
(MARK 16:6, 70 AD)

5. I should add that Bruno Bauer also finds the influence of Josephus throughout the New Testament. Philo, too. This convinced him that: (a) the New Testament was written later than tradition tells us; and (b) Roman writers, with the Septuagint Old Testament and the writings of Josephus, Philo and Seneca, would have sufficient raw material to mold the New Testament to their artistic preferences.

6. Add to these observations the observation by Francesco Carotta that the literary staff of the cult of the Divine Julius held yet more material for this project, and we may well on our way toward a scientific reconstruction of the precise historical origins of the New Testament.

Best regards,
--Paul Trejo, M.A.

TedM · 12-20-2005, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

From

http://www.carotta.de/forum/messages/780.html

(Part of a discussion on carotta's website - apologies if copyright.)

I didn't see any direct quotes of Seneca in Mark. Three similarities, yes, but to conclude that Seneca inspired Mark to put those words in a created Jesus' mouth is not warranted. It's so easy to find similarities and patterns and possible influences. How does one make a case for invention out of a few similarities here, a few there?

ted

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 07:35 AM

Sorry, I didn't quote that as direct quote (by authors of Mark (?) of Seneca) - it was the nearest I found after a Google search, I hope others may be able to expand on this. (Of course entire passion scene has been said to be by Seneca...)

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

I should add that Bruno Bauer also finds the influence of Josephus throughout the New Testament. Philo, too. This convinced him that: (a) the New Testament was written later than tradition tells us; and (b) Roman writers, with the Septuagint Old Testament and the writings of Josephus, Philo and Seneca, would have sufficient raw material to mold the New Testament to their artistic preferences.

6. Add to these observations the observation by Francesco Carotta that the literary staff of the cult of the Divine Julius held yet more material for this project, and we may well on our way toward a scientific reconstruction of the precise historical origins of the New Testament.

Is this a reasonable hypothesis?

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

I didn't see any direct quotes of Seneca in Mark. Three similarities, yes, but to conclude that Seneca inspired Mark to put those words in a created Jesus' mouth is not warranted. It's so easy to find similarities and patterns and possible influences. How does one make a case for invention out of a few similarities here, a few there?

ted

Would plagiarism software help?

TedM · 12-20-2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Would plagiarism software help?

I doubt it. In the end it is subjective, and finding a bunch of similarities proves nothing. The probability increases IMO in proportion to the number and quality of similarities and in inverse proportion to the number of sources. IOW 20 different sources with one vague similarity constitute vitually no case, while 1 source with 50 highly similar references would be a strong case.

ted

Julian · 12-20-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

Yes, of course. This obviously does not suggest, however, that Jesus was only a composite of previous Greek concepts instead of a flesh and blood person.

Although that case has been made by Robert Price and others with quite a large amount of evidence to back it up.

Julian

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-20-2005, 04:19 AM	#12
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Can we take this a step at a time? First are their direct quotes from Seneca in the New Testament?

12-20-2005, 07:35 AM	#15
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Sorry, I didn't quote that as direct quote (by authors of Mark (?) of Seneca) - it was the nearest I found after a Google search, I hope others may be able to expand on this. (Of course entire passion scene has been said to be by Seneca...)

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.