Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 12-19-2005, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Philo, who was still living about A.D. 40 but was already very old, was the real father of Christianity, and that the Roman stoic Seneca was, so to speak, its uncle.

What happened to this idea? Has it been disproved?

http://libcom.org/library/bruno-baue...tianity-engels

Quote:

Bauer proved that the Epistles often copy the latter word-for-word; in fact, even the faithful noticed this, but they maintained that Seneca had copied from the New Testament, though it had not yet been written in his time.

Bauer studied this question until his death. His research reached its culminating point in the conclusion that the Alexandrian Jew Philo, who was still living about A.D. 40 but was already very old, was the real father of Christianity, and that the Roman stoic Seneca was, so to speak, its uncle.

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-19-2005, 01:42 AM

This is just another claim of the 'Jesus myth', something which most scholars, both Christian and secular, would disagree with.

Clivedurdle · 12-19-2005, 08:27 AM

I assume most people disagree with it cos most people assume jesus existed! Tautological!

Why do people disagree with it? What are the faults with this idea? What are the correlations between Seneca and the New Testament?

Clivedurdle · 12-19-2005, 08:37 AM

The Christian Research Institute comments:

http://www.equip.org/free/DA242.htm

Quote:

WAS THE NEW TESTAMENT
INFLUENCED BY PAGAN PHILOSOPHY?
by Ronald Nash
Summary

Many college students still encounter outdated charges that first century Christianity and the New Testament were heavily influenced by pagan philosophical systems. Prominent among such claims are the following: (1) elements of Plato's philosophy appear in the New Testament; (2) the New Testament reflects the influence of Stoicism; and (3) the ancient Jewish philosopher Philo was a source of John's use of the Greek word logos as a description of Jesus. Each of these claims may be easily answered, a fact which challenges the badly outdated scholarship that continues to circulate these allegations in books and lectures.

Did the Christianity of the first century A.D. borrow any of its essential beliefs1 from the pagan philosophical systems of that time? Was first century Christianity — the Christianity reflected in the pages of the New Testament — a syncretistic religion (i.e., a religion which fuses elements of differing belief systems)?

Christian college students occasionally encounter professors who answer these questions in the affirmative and then attempt to use the claim that there are pagan roots behind the words of the New Testament to undermine the faith of Christian students in their classes. Many Christians who hear allegations like these for the first time are stunned and find themselves at a loss about the best way to handle such claims. The purpose of this article is to provide such Christians with the help they need to answer charges that the New Testament was influenced by pagan philosophy. In a separate article that will appear in the next issue of this journal, I'll tackle the related issue of whether the New Testament was influenced by pagan religious systems of the first century.

Have these claims been undermined or is it all classic propaganda?

Amaleq13 · 12-19-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

This is just another claim of the 'Jesus myth', something which most scholars, both Christian and secular, would disagree with.

This completely fails to address the OP. If you cannot answer the question, don't waste bandwidth with an irrelevant comment that can only create a derailing tangent about mythicism. And, yes, I intend to offer a similar warning to mythicist posts in threads with OP's assuming historicity.

Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

TedM · 12-19-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Bauer proved that the Epistles often copy the latter word-for-word; in fact, even the faithful noticed this, but they maintained that Seneca had copied from the New Testament, though it had not yet been written in his time.

I'd like to see the evidence for each of these two claims. Might an alternative explanation be that Philo introduced certain concepts about God becoming man/wisdom etc which the early Christians mapped onto Jesus himself?

Note the description of Apollos in Acts 18:24 "He had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John..when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and expounded to him thet way of God more accurately."

Acts says that Apollos was from Alexandria (18:24), as was Philo. Might one conclude from the above passage just what I've suggested--some ideas from Philo WERE similar to those in early Christianity, and that Jesus was seen as the fulfillment of those ideas?

ted

Toto · 12-19-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

This is just another claim of the 'Jesus myth', something which most scholars, both Christian and secular, would disagree with.

Actually not. I heard a talk by a Greek Orthodox priest who was quite proud to claim that the Greek Orthodox Church incorporated the best of classical Greek thought. If Jesus and his followers existed at that point in history, it would be hard to think that they did not absorb some elements of the prevailing culture.

I don't think that you will find a definitive answer. It is too easy for one writer to find some differences between two philosophies and claim that they are essentially different, while someone else notices points of similarity. That's what keeps academics employed.

Try this: Soticism

Quote:

. . .

There is much disagreement as to the measure of Stoic influence on the writings of St. Paul, the Apostle of Christ. At Tarsus, Paul certainly had opportunities for hearing Stoic lectures on philosophy. And it may be that his discussion of nature and the teaching of it (I Cor. 11:14) is Stoic in origin, for it has a parallel in the Manual of Epictetus 1.16, 10. Although not a Stoic technical term, syneidesis, which Paul used as "conscience," was generally employed by Stoic philosophers. In I Cor. 13 and in the report of Paul's speech at Athens (Acts 17), there is much that is Hellenistic, more than a little tinged by Stoic elements--e.g., the arguments concerning man's natural belief in God and the belief that man's existence is in God.

. . .

Christianity in general, in spite of striking contrasts with Stoicism, has found elements within it that parallel its own position. As the Stoic, for example, feels safe and protected in the rational care of some immanent Providence, so the Christian senses that a transcendent though incarnate and loving God is looking after him. And in general, Stoicism has played a great part throughout the ages in the theological formulation of Christian thought as well as in the actual realization of the Christian ideals.

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Bauer proved that the Epistles often copy the latter word-for-word; in fact, even the faithful noticed this, but they maintained that Seneca had copied from the New Testament, though it had not yet been written in his time.

Can anyone show evidence of where Seneca is quoted directly in the New Testament?

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 01:25 AM

Quote:

There is much disagreement as to the measure of Stoic influence on the writings of St. Paul, the Apostle of Christ. At Tarsus, Paul certainly had opportunities for hearing Stoic lectures on philosophy. And it may be that his discussion of nature and the teaching of it (I Cor. 11:14) is Stoic in origin, for it has a parallel in the Manual of Epictetus 1.16, 10. Although not a Stoic technical term, syneidesis, which Paul used as "conscience," was generally employed by Stoic philosophers. In I Cor. 13 and in the report of Paul's speech at Athens (Acts 17), there is much that is Hellenistic, more than a little tinged by Stoic elements--e.g., the arguments concerning man's natural belief in God and the belief that man's existence is in God.

Where there is much disagreement is exactly where us non angels love to tread!

Is I Cor 13 Stoic?

(Is the above a neutral commentary? What is this "the Apostle of Christ"? The definition of epicurianism in the above link also seemed iffy - does it have a modern emphasis on pleasure that Epicurus really did not have - he was for moderation! Is there more evidence for stoicism than apologists have allowed?)

Clivedurdle · 12-20-2005, 01:40 AM

What if the New Testament and all the apocryphal stuff had not been known for the last nineteen hundred years and had been found in a cave somewhere? What would we have made of it? Would we have been clearer as seeing it as a sect of stoicism created by Philo? Engels was a brilliant propagandist and writer with Marx - see the Communist Manifesto!

What do we have if we clear away all the undergrowth of everyone's interpretations and carry out a clear thought experiment like an archaeological dig?

First clue - isn't it all originally written in Greek?

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12-19-2005, 01:42 AM	#2
Orthodox_Freethinker Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,812	This is just another claim of the 'Jesus myth', something which most scholars, both Christian and secular, would disagree with.

12-19-2005, 08:27 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I assume most people disagree with it cos most people assume jesus existed! Tautological! Why do people disagree with it? What are the faults with this idea? What are the correlations between Seneca and the New Testament?

12-20-2005, 01:40 AM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	What if the New Testament and all the apocryphal stuff had not been known for the last nineteen hundred years and had been found in a cave somewhere? What would we have made of it? Would we have been clearer as seeing it as a sect of stoicism created by Philo? Engels was a brilliant propagandist and writer with Marx - see the Communist Manifesto! What do we have if we clear away all the undergrowth of everyone's interpretations and carry out a clear thought experiment like an archaeological dig? First clue - isn't it all originally written in Greek?

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