noah

hi helpmabob,

You wrote:
I'm afraid scripture does not support this assertion helpmabob. There are a number of people in the bible who did exactly that, for example:

Gen. 6:9 "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."


Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.


Job 1:8 "...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" (Job 2:3)


Gen. 7:1 "And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."


Luke 1:5-6 "In the days of Herod, the king of Judaea,there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abia: andhe had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.(RSV)

2 Chronicles 15:17 "But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

The New Testament makes clear that God's laws are not a problem to follow:
1 John 5:3
"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,"


Another problem is that John 3:16 doesn't make any sense if the rest of the bible is to be believed. God didn't have only one son. He had many as we can see in these verses:

Gen.6:2
"The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair."

Gen.6:4
"The sons of God came in unto the daughters of men."

Job 1:6
"The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Job 2:1
"The sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD."

Job 38:6-7
"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Regards,

Noah

Lux Interior

Two occur to me at the moment, that I haven't seen previously mentioned.

(1) James 2:14-24

At least among Fundamentalists, though didn't Martin Luther want to punt the entire Book? So I suppose he didn't ignore it.

(2) 1 Timothy 1:9-15

Even better than the previously posted bit from 1 Cor.

Helpmabob

Hi Noah –

Re: Men who exhibited righteousness - I know I am no OT scholar. I am also confident that it is God who will judge who is righteous. In the cases you have quoted, the righteousness is imputed from God. Only this will withstand proper scrutiny on the day of judgement. Man’s perfection and uprightness is flawed - it is his offering of obedience - but can add nothing more to the clothing of righteousness that comes from above.

Re: Our own success in following God's commands - We do not and cannot obey God’s commands fully – similarly neither do we love Him as we ought. Christians love money etc as well. But His commands are not burdensome if we come to the Lord for help - “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.� (Matthew 11:28-30 NIV)

Re: The number of sons - I praise God that He will consider me as a son of His, as I do not deserve it. Jesus was different.

noah

Hi helpmabob,

Yes that's true. No one can be judged righteous except by God. That is the whole point of the term is it not?

Yes and as the bible states over and over that obedience of God's laws are mandatory and essential for righteousness and salvation

That's not what the bible says. Zecharia and Elizabeth did it. Asa did it. 1 John 5:3 makes clear that anyone can obey God's laws.

Book/Chapter/Verse?


Best,

Noah

Helpmabob

Hi noah,

If I may address an earlier ponit: This may be an apt view of christianity. The Bible offers guidance in all situations for all people. This may be why it says one thing in one place, and then contradicts itself elsewhere. Each christian, indeed everyone, is free with a prayerful mind and a humble heart to seek the Lord and His will with the help of the Bible.

So when I say that I agree Zechariah and Elizabeth were upright and thoroughly nice people, my opinion remains that they could not, and were not perfect in God's sight because of what it says elsewhere in the Bible - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." [Romans 3:23]

I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God." The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!" [John 1:34-36]

On the being different scale, that scores top marks.

regards, hmb.

pharoah

Doesn't that also apply to Jesus?

Helpmabob

One might say that Jesus was being tremendously humble here.

Bold

That would be dishonestly humble.

noah

Hi helpmabob,

You said:

That may be true. It may not be true. We do not know the nature of the relationship between God and all his sons.
The point is, however, that JC was not the only son of God as I am sure you will agree.
More to the point, however, is that JC could not have been a sacrificial lamb because the Torah forbids human sacrifice.
Shedding blood is not required for atonenment, Micah Chapter 6 states exactly what god expects for atonement
(KJV) 6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? 7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Hosea Chapter 14 says only words are required for atonement:

(KJV) 1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. 2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Check out these verses for more on what god requires for atonement:
Lev 5:11; Is 1:11; Hosea 14:2; Ps 40:6; Ps 50:7-15; Ex 30:15-16; Num 17:11; Num 31:50

Tell me what is it about Paul that he trumps every other verse in the bible?
Why do you choose Paul instead of Luke and the Old Testament?
All these verses show that the law is doable, following it is required for salvation and applies forever:
Deut 6:25; Deut 30:11-14; Ps 19:7-8: Lev 16: 29 -34
In fact JC declares in Revelations 22:14 that those who keep the commandments are saved.

Are you a Christian or a Paulinian?

Ebonmuse

Another passage from the Bible that most Christians are unaware of: a verse from Ezekiel that says specifically what the sin of Sodom was:

I recommend bringing that one up the next time some homophobic fundamentalist starts spouting off about the "sin of sodomy".