Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-06-2007, 03:10 PM

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Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I find gLuke's crucifixion to be extremely incredible. Just imagine being under excrutiating torture and pain and yet still have the ability to converse with others who are also being tortured and carry out a coherent conversation with them.

Unless Jesus was actually a God, I consider the crucifixion, as described, to be fiction.

Without actually going and performing an experiment, I think it is rather difficult for us today to know how capable one was of communicating coherently while crucified. I guess the people of that era (and the Romans crucified thousands during the siege of Jerusalem) knew better than we do.

It's not difficult for me to imagine a person being crucified screaming with pain and agony for hours until dead or unconscious, in antiquity or today.

Minimalist · 12-06-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath

There's more to it of course, but you get the gist, don't you?

You're killing me.

DCHindley · 12-06-2007, 04:01 PM

In John, the word is "tetelestai" (an indicative perfect passive) which is literally "it has been accomplished!" John depicts Jesus as on a mission, and like a good secret agent, he radios his boss as the submarine he has just blown a hole in the hull of begins to sink and says "mission accomplished" and then smartly klicks his heels. The mission, here at least, is to rescue the elect from the evil world ... wait a minute, this isn't a gnostic text from Nag Hammadi! Oh, never mind ...

DCH (L. Ron Hubbard's evil twin)

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

According to gMark, Jesus' last words on the cross were ,"My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" gMatthew repeated the very same last words.

However in gLuke, Jesus appears to be in a more upbeat mood even on the cross, he seems to be in conference with his crucifiers and maintained dialogue with those crucified with him when he said, "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do," and addressing one of the thieves, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise".
And on the cross, his last words were, according to gLuke, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Now, gJohn recorded a totally different version of Jesus' last words on the cross. Jesus spoke to his mother and said, "Woman, behold thy son"and to a disciple, "Behold, thy mother." And after saying, "I thirst" and his final words were, It is finished."

If Jesus was just a natural human being, and was actually crucified, I would like to believe he would have said or screamed, at the top of his lungs, " Somebody help me, please stop, no, wt...wt...expletive....expletive, oh sh....., aaahhhh" for hours until he was dead.

What do you think Jesus would have said or screamed when he was on the cross, if he was actually crucified.

DCHindley · 12-06-2007, 04:22 PM

Malachai,

Such negative waves!

Well, the phrase "why have you forsaken me," whether actually said or not, is *represented* as being said by the authors of Mark and Matthew. Whether it means anything to you today is completely irelevant! It meant something to those authors, and - honestly - there really are normal, intelligent, free thinking individuals today who are interested in getting a handle on what that may have been. "Curious minds want to know ..." <g>

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

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Originally Posted by Joan of Bark: The why hast thou forsaken me quote is a real head-scratcher, and Christians avoid talking about it. I think it has a better chance of being accurate than any of the other quotes, simply because it is more controversial to the Christian faith, and therefore less likely to be invented. I mean, why would Jesus say such a thing if he had already predicted his crucifixion? If I was God, I would reply: "Quit yer bellyachin'. You knew this would happen, you worked to make it happen, so why are you complaining now?"

I don't think this is considered controversial by most Christians. The standard explanation given is that at that moment Christ was bearing our sins and therefore had to be forsaken by the father.

Which is a stupid explanation. It was copied from Psalm 22, enough said.

IN anwser to the first question: There is no reason to think that any of these things were said or that any of this ever happened, and there is much evidence against the whole scene.

Solitary Man · 12-06-2007, 04:36 PM

I also want to point out to R. G. Price aka Malachi151 that it was not copied from Psalm 22.

Psalm 22: eli eli lamah azavtani.
Last Words: eloi eloi lamma sabachthani

He didn't "copy" it, unless you want to make a case that he copied it from some undiscovered and hypothetical Targum. As far as I can tell, no Targum has that exact same phrase.

Malachi151 · 12-06-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

I also want to point out to R. G. Price aka Malachi151 that it was not copied from Psalm 22.

Psalm 22: eli eli lamah azavtani.
Last Words: eloi eloi lamma sabachthani

He didn't "copy" it, unless you want to make a case that he copied it from some undiscovered and hypothetical Targum. As far as I can tell, no Targum has that exact same phrase.

No, he copied it from the Septuagint, in Greek. The Aramaic reading that he gives is his own translation of the Greek.

Malachi151 · 12-06-2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Malachai,

Such negative waves!

Well, the phrase "why have you forsaken me," whether actually said or not, is *represented* as being said by the authors of Mark and Matthew. Whether it means anything to you today is completely irelevant! It meant something to those authors, and - honestly - there really are normal, intelligent, free thinking individuals today who are interested in getting a handle on what that may have been. "Curious minds want to know ..." <g>

DCH

It was a literary allusion. Trying to figure out "Why Jesus said it", makes no sense. The author was alluding to a text about suffering and hope, that's why it is a part of the text.

Solitary Man · 12-06-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

No, he copied it from the Septuagint, in Greek. The Aramaic reading that he gives is his own translation of the Greek.

So, Mark knew Aramaic, eh? And Matthew knew enough Hebrew to be able to correct eloi to eli?

Furthermore, tell me about these Greek passages:

ὁ θεος ὁ θεος μου προσχες μοι ινα τι εγκατελιπες με (μακρα απο της σωτηριας μου οἱ λογοι των παραπτωματων μου)

ὁ θεος μου ὁ θεος μου εις τι εγκατελιπες με

Why did Mark add the second μου and leave off the προσχες μοι ινα substituting it for εις?

Still, there's not a direct copy.

Solitary Man · 12-06-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

It was a literary allusion. Trying to figure out "Why Jesus said it", makes no sense. The author was alluding to a text about suffering and hope, that's why it is a part of the text.

"That's a stupid answer."

How about a little evidence to back up your baseless assertions?

Joan of Bark · 12-06-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

The why hast thou forsaken me quote is a real head-scratcher, and Christians avoid talking about it. I think it has a better chance of being accurate than any of the other quotes, simply because it is more controversial to the Christian faith, and therefore less likely to be invented. I mean, why would Jesus say such a thing if he had already predicted his crucifixion? If I was God, I would reply: "Quit yer bellyachin'. You knew this would happen, you worked to make it happen, so why are you complaining now?"

I don't think this is considered controversial by most Christians. The standard explanation given is that at that moment Christ was bearing our sins and therefore had to be forsaken by the father.

I'm not saying you're wrong, squiz, but that's the first time I've heard such an explanation. The Christians I have heard talking about it always claim that it was "Jesus' moment of doubt", which merely proves he was human.

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12-06-2007, 04:36 PM	#25
Solitary Man Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: ירושלים Posts: 1,701	I also want to point out to R. G. Price aka Malachi151 that it was not copied from Psalm 22. Psalm 22: eli eli lamah azavtani. Last Words: eloi eloi lamma sabachthani He didn't "copy" it, unless you want to make a case that he copied it from some undiscovered and hypothetical Targum. As far as I can tell, no Targum has that exact same phrase.

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