Heathen Dawn

Mod's Note: This thread was originally part of this one.

So if I get it right, you did what Kurt Wise did: you were faced with a choice of the Bible (in its literal interpretation) and secular science, and you chose the Bible (faith) over science (evidence). So even if all the evidence were against creationism (and I think it is ), you would still believe in it, right?

Magus55

Yup, I will trust God over man until my death. Do I need to pull out the verse on the wisdom of man being foolish to God?

Gregg

Yes, if we would only trust in God's wisdom, we would still have all those nice things like slavery, monarchies, women as property, discrimination against the disabled or disfigured, the stoning of kids for being disrespectful to their parents, witch burning, and so on, as opposed to those foolish, secular humanist notions like liberty, democracy, equality, compassion, and the like.

GunnerJ

You can pull out the verse about Balaam talking to his donkey, for all the hell difference it makes. It doesn't support the existence of talking asses. Well, other things, a few on this thread in fact, do. But not that verse.

Warcraft3

Oh yeah...........because all of those concepts came from secular humanism...right? Oh brother...

And they certainly arent found in Christianity...right? Give me a break.

For crying out loud people!!! Such arguments are just ridiculous and shouldnt even be made. The chip on your shoulder shows clearly when you say such things.



Russ

GunnerJ

Please deomstrate that gregg claimed that "liberty, democracy, equality, [and] compassion" are concepts that originated with secular humanism.

Please deomstrate that Christian dogma supports personal liberty, democracy, and equality.

The_Unknown_Banana

No offense intended, but quite frankly I find such a statement to be outright scary. Do you ever wonder if perhaps your perception of reality might be flawed? I realise that sounds like I think I know better, but still... I find it hard to get to comprehend your reasoning. Is there any chance in your mind that your God might tell you that he did in fact create us via evolution? Would you believe then?

imo there are no certainties, and there's ALWAYS a chance that you could be wrong. If you don't re-evaluate your position upon new evidence to the contrary, then you are forcing ignorance upon yourself imho.

Warcraft3

from gregg: Lets see........ a sarcastic remark that contrasts "Gods wisdom" with "secular humanism" by contrasting slavery, monarchies, women as property, discrimination against the disabled or disfigured, the stoning of kids for being disrespectful to their parents, witch burning to liberty, democracy, equality, compassion, and the like. Note the sarcastic words "nice things" and "foolish" placed so as to amplify the sarcastic tone.

So I answer this sarcastic post with another sarcastic post and what responce do I get? Someone saying "yeah you're right that is a bad way to argue against religion"? Nope. Now, all of a sudden...I get hit with a "well prove it exactly in a factual sense that he said that very thing word for word." type post.

For crying out loud.......(smiling and shaking my head while posting)


But alas I will chose to answer this latest post by GunnerJ:
Please deomstrate that I claimed that gregg claimed that "liberty, democracy, equality, [and] compassion" are concepts that originated with secular humanism.

What does "Christian dogma" mean? Do you mean the interpretation of scripture that is supported by the historical church and is accepted by the majority of Christian denominations? Or by "Christian dogma" do you mean a verse that reads something like this "And to the church of pleasantville I write...Be ye kind one to another for in Christ we all have personal liberty, democracy, and equality in a way that is completely consistant with any skeptical humanists definition and is, at the same time, 100% objective while conforming to any subjective viewpoint on any and all issues."

Lets be reasonable here..shall we?

Here is some advice (for free )........

If you want to make a good case for atheism (or want to give good arguments against Theism) I recommend you dont use such arguments as the one gregg used and you defended.

It shuts down communication and further isolates you in your position. You guys are in the minority in this world so I suggest you stick to good arguments.......you are only hurting your own cause by using outrageous arguments.


Russ

Doubting Didymus

The veiwpoint that greggs original post was in response to is pure biblical literalism. When real literally, personal liberty, democracy, and equality are not sentiments that the bible tends to really expouse. I agree with you that an argument from such an angle does only harm when aimed at modern liberal christianity, but it is not usually aimed at said modern christianity, but at biblical literalism.

Gregg

Yes, I exaggerated, and yes, I was being sarcastic. I was just trying to make a point, Russ. If someone takes the Bible literally, he/she must accept that God clearly ENDORSES such things as slavery, monarchies, chattel status for women, stoning for trivial offenses, and so on. Yes, ideas such as social justice and compassion ARE found in the Bible, especially in the prophets and some of Jesus' teachings...but in the OT, these ideas apply ONLY to Jews, and even after Christians gained political and military power, it still took them almost 2,000 years to get rid of things like slavery, monarchies, second-class status for women, etc.; and much of the pressure for these changes originated not from Biblical literalists, but from "enlightened" liberal Christians, Deists, Unitarians, agnostics, etc.--percursers of secular humanists.