Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-12-2005, 12:53 PM

Messiah Myth - cleverly priced at $23 on Amazon, so you will be tempted to buy another book to qualify for free shipping.

Quote:

Drawing on the wealth of tales of kings and saviors in Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek and Roman literature, he demonstrates that the biblical stories of David's military successes and Jesus' moral teaching are simply fictions weaving these earlier traditions into new hero stories. In addition, he reveals that the story of Jesus' resurrection was fashioned almost exclusively from the story of the dying and rising god, Dionysus. For Thompson, Jesus and David emerge merely as characters in stories that reveal the value of the good king. Although Thompson provides a valuable service by situating the Jesus and David tales in the context of other ancient Near Eastern literature, his argument that the biblical writers used such literature to write their fictions of David and Jesus is neither new nor startling. In addition, the lack of a coherent structure and a definitive conclusion lessens the effectiveness of Thompson's book.

Quote:

Like King David before him, says Thompson, the Jesus of the Bible is an amalgamation of themes from Near Eastern mythology and traditions of kingship and divinity. The theme of a messiah-a divinely appointed king who restores the world to perfection-is typical of Egyptian and Babylonian royal ideology dating back to the Bronze Age. In Thompson's view, the contemporary audience for whom the Old and New Testament were written would naturally have interpreted David and Jesus not as historical figures, but as metaphors embodying long-established messianic traditions.

Clivedurdle · 04-12-2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

In Thompson's view, the contemporary audience for whom the Old and New Testament were written would naturally have interpreted David and Jesus not as historical figures, but as metaphors embodying long-established messianic traditions.

Why and how did the myth get changed into psuedo - history?

John A. Broussard · 04-12-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why and how did the myth get changed into psuedo - history?

Myth, by it's very nature, tends to become pseudo-history--even in our day and age with printing, photographs, video and what not. The raising of the flag at Iwo Jima is one that occurs to me at the moment. I believed at the time that the photo was literally correct--the portrait of a brave expression of patriotism under fire. That thus became pseudo-history since we now know it was simply a reenactment for the benefit of the photographer.

Imagine what it must have been like 2000 years ago in a backwater province of the Roman Empire, with a high rate of illiteracy and where the main source of communication was word of mouth.

agator · 04-12-2005, 03:35 PM

John,
I don't think you are accurate on the Mount Suribachi (Iwo Jima) account. There were two flags raised on that day, but not for the sake of a cameraman. The first one raised was too small and the commander wanted a flag that could be seen from all over( plus he wanted the original smaller flag). Mr. Rosenthal did miss the first flag, but caught the second one going up. If you have different info, I would like to see it.

Vorkosigan · 04-12-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why and how did the myth get changed into psuedo - history?

I'll be answering that in a few weeks. But basically the Gospel of Mark draws on the conventions of second century Hellenistic novels, and psuedo-history, often seriously presented, is a hallmark of them. Pursuant to this, I suggest you track down a copy of Bowersock's Fiction as History.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 04-12-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agator

John,
I don't think you are accurate on the Mount Suribachi (Iwo Jima) account. There were two flags raised on that day, but not for the sake of a cameraman. The first one raised was too small and the commander wanted a flag that could be seen from all over( plus he wanted the original smaller flag). Mr. Rosenthal did miss the first flag, but caught the second one going up. If you have different info, I would like to see it.

The second flag-raising, the famous one, was posed. The first one was caught on camera, but the pic, also posed, is boring.

JohNeo · 04-12-2005, 04:02 PM

Sweet!

I advance-ordered the book in December. I'll have to check my order status and see when it's supposed to arrive.

JohNeo

agator · 04-12-2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

The second flag-raising, the famous one, was posed. The first one was caught on camera, but the pic, also posed, is boring.

Posed? What proof do you have?
Boring? Well this is an opinion so have at it, but I bet it wasn't boring taking that hill.

Vorkosigan · 04-12-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agator

Posed? What proof do you have?
Boring? Well this is an opinion so have at it, but I bet it wasn't boring taking that hill.

I've seen both pics; they are in many places. This has a pic of the first pic.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/141762

and a discussion forum devoted to the first flag raising.

The whole sequence of two flags is here

http://www.iwojima.com/raising/raisingb.htm

although I recall reading a detailed discussion in which it was claimed that both raisings were posed, both sites give the opposite impression. My bad.

Nope second flag raising was staged, not posed. Slightly different. See the film clip page on the second site.

Vorkosigan

andrewcriddle · 04-13-2005, 06:58 AM

Does anyone know for sure whether Thompson accepts a (broadly) historical Paul ?

The reviews I've seen don't make it clear.

Andrew Criddle

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04-12-2005, 03:35 PM	#4
agator Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 217	John, I don't think you are accurate on the Mount Suribachi (Iwo Jima) account. There were two flags raised on that day, but not for the sake of a cameraman. The first one raised was too small and the commander wanted a flag that could be seen from all over( plus he wanted the original smaller flag). Mr. Rosenthal did miss the first flag, but caught the second one going up. If you have different info, I would like to see it.

04-12-2005, 04:02 PM	#7
JohNeo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Dallas-Plano-Irving MSA, Texas Posts: 3,376	Sweet! I advance-ordered the book in December. I'll have to check my order status and see when it's supposed to arrive. JohNeo

04-13-2005, 06:58 AM	#10
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Does anyone know for sure whether Thompson accepts a (broadly) historical Paul ? The reviews I've seen don't make it clear. Andrew Criddle

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