Keith Jentoft

Thank you for your feedback. I believe that you are exactly correct that this is one possible implication of this premise. The Bible claims that God lives in heaven, it claims the angels come from heaver to the earth, the specific Hebrew term "sons of god" is actually used in Job 1 to describe the group of angels in heaven with one having returned from walking on the earth.

This premise states that these being actually do have bodies of some kind, as proved by the birth of the Nephilim. We are simply no longer capable for some genetic reason linked to our 120 year life of interacting with them as we once did. The Biblical record does allow for the some kind of limited interaction through dreams and sight/sound. However this interaction is no longer objective and provable but subjective. My claim of seeing a spirit is not soemthing I can prove nor is your claim of having spoken with one. My premise states that this was different at a point in time.

Thus, this premise would indicate that there are beings with bodies that existed in the heavens that come and interacted with humans at one point in time that no longer happens because of a genetic degradation.

Keith Jentoft

I believe that the myths are a mystery because different cultures without contact with each other documented myths of very similar nature. My premise does not state that all interaction ceased but that a tangible and objective interaction ceased - one no longer provable through the birth of Nephilim. People claim to speak with spirits every day. We see them on late night TV. The Biblical record indicates that some kind of limited dream/sight/sound interaction may occur. The problem is that it is now subjective and my word against yours. If Mohammad claims to have heard a spirit, how can I know. The fact that he wins wars afterwards is not "proof." We see man who don't claim to hear spirits winning wars as well.

I am not in a position to analyse each myth and that is not my goal. The premise would indicate that there would be a period of transition from a generation that could directly interact with spirits to one that couldn't. If there were old men that could interact, it would seem logical that they would have the younger generation create likenesses in stone, metal or wood to show the young ones what the spirits looked like. There would be a kind of priesthood established by this generation that would pass things now secret to the young ones. Oddly, this is exactly what we see. This is one explanation as to why such an odd behavior would exist.

Keith Jentoft

Thank you for your feedback, it is one of the reasons that I believe the premise is strong. Your main point, if I understand you, is why do I believe that God stopped this interaction. I belive that the motive is love/concern. The record indicates that this direct interaction with the spiritual dimension produced evil in all but a handful of people - the inclination of the heart was only for evil. What I see is that God chose to limit physical interaction with spirits across the board - good or bad. After this time the interaction of the Biblical record becomes subjective. However, before this happens, God gives us an objective written record that we can look to of His promise. This was given to people who witnessed tangible and supernormal events that gave credance to the writings themselves. The Exodus and Sinai are contemporary with this last time. After this promise is written and now available to us who are genetically deficient, this capability disappears. Whereas men interacted directly with spirits and became evil, their children no longer had this capability. This transistion would create a priesthood of the vestiges of the genetically capable passing on to their children a subjective claim of what they objectively experienced. This is what we find except with the Hebrews. This transition was not to idols but to a written message.

Thus, after communicating this message to us that began with Adam, Enoch, Noah, and was clarified and detailed to Abraham, and partially fulfilled with Moses/Joshus - God limits this interaction to prevent us from becoming more evil than we would otherwise be capable of.

This is why the incarnation seems credible. After allowing this gulf of protection to form between man and spirits - now only subjective dreams/sight/sound - he bridges this gap and comes as a man. This was promised in Gen 3 when the "seed of the woman" was to come. The Hebrew word for seed was singular and this man was born of a virgin. The reason that he had to be born was exactly because the gulf was created. He came to bring us objective words from the spiritual world. This is what is claimed in John 1, Hebrews 1 and 1 John.

"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."

This was not a subjective or mystical message. Men heard real words with real ears. The motive of good and life was successful - leaving us with a real objective message of life while limiting the contact with the evil spiritual beings.

I believe the objective witnesses and the record they left. You have decided that they are not good enough for you. It all gets back to our initial assumptions and, based upon these we arrive at different conclusions.

mike_decock

The 122 year old Jeanne Louise Calment had the longest (reliably reported) lifespan to date. The notion that humans or going through some "genetic degradation" has no scientific basis.

If you want an interesting (and more scientifically plausible) theory on why the voices of Gods and Angels were so clear to humans thousands of years ago, try reading The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes.

-Mike...

exile

Thiis idea requires one to accept 2 premises

1. Huimans used to communicate with spirits/gods

2. They no longer do so.

I suspect most rationalists would dispute 1. Spriritualists and many Christians would disagree with 2.

Infidelettante

Keith, please include the name of the person you are responding to in your reply. It is easier to follow if you do. Thanks, JT

If this is so Keith why didn’t your God eliminate all interaction between the spirit realm and the physical realm? In the time of Jesus demons seemed to be doing a good job of causing havoc in the lives of not a few. And many Christians even now believe demons and spirits can possess a person. Many believe that even short of possession spirits are involved in active attempts to influence and misguide them.

If your God could intervene to prevent physical beings from having relations with spiritual beings in order to protect the physical beings why did he not prevent all detrimental interaction? Why do spirits still trouble us? I have to tell you this subject has special resonance with me. I am a Pagan, an Occultist and a Ritualist. While I do not call myself a witch there is little difference in what I think and do and what most Wiccans and Witches think and do. I do not believe there are spirits, demons, or gods. But, Christians accuse us of consorting with them. Pagans, Wiccans, and Witches are routinely castigated on Christian web sites as Satan worshipers at worst and his hapless dupes at best.

And your God encourages you in this bizarre and antiquated view of reality. While he condemns my dabbling in the occult he strives mightily to keep aspects of the spirit realm hidden from you. Must I tell you that this is the very definition of ~occult~? Your God is an occultist! He hides knowledge of the spirits from you and yet allows them to have run of this world and to inflict all manner of horrors on those he professes to love. Do you ever question your God? Perhaps you should.

Quote]God gives us an objective written record that we can look to of His promise. This was given to people who witnessed tangible and supernormal events that gave credance to the writings themselves.[/quote]

We are back at my original question. Why did your God reveal his presence in one way in the past and differently now? Why are there no ~tangible and supernormal events~ now? Why?

Genetically deficient? This is how you understand Your God? That he would make his beloved humans ~genetically deficient~ in order to protect them from beings he created? Or is it that your God was protecting them from other Gods? I think that is the little occult joke your God has played on you. There are other Gods, only he has convinced you they are demons and devils and you are too confused to see through his magic show. Have you never questioned your God? Perhaps you should.

Do you believe then that people can’t now be possessed by demons or is it that demon possession is not now considered direct interaction with spirits?

I see. Your God allowed demons to possess people during the time Jesus was alive so he could exhibit his power over them. So the incarnation is more credible by reason of demon possession? Your God does move in mysterious ways. And now I have an even greater respect for his talents as an occultist.

You assume it all really happened. I assume something happened too but your God is too untrustworthy to, well, trust. First he made such wonderful creatures as spirits and let them loose in his creation. Then he made such wonderful creatures as people and encouraged them to be fruitful and multiply. There were some troubles along the way but they did proceed to multiply.

And, having multiplied enough to allow some fruitful interaction with your God’s other created beings they found themselves judged unfit and were rendered genetically deficient. Your God does not reveal what deficiencies if any were inflicted on the spirit beings. Their being spirit beings it goes without saying that genetic deficiencies were not inflicted. It is to be remembered that the little devils still bedevil us so any actions your God took, if any, seem not to have taken.

Please let me know if I have failed to grasp your point.

JT

variant 13

But you will have to deal the fact that are myths/folklore/urban legends where pregnancies are caused by other worldly beings (aliens now).

These are pretty much indistinguishable from the myths you keep.


It is far more likely that they have only ever been myths, stories. We know how gossip works, how stories spread, these are equally able to explain the myths and have the added benefit of explaining better.

Keith Jentoft

That is exactly what my premise allows us to do. The modern folklore /urban legends that we find do not produce a tangible Nephilim. Even more compelling, those that claim this interaction do not live beyond the required age of 120 years. If I found a 150 year old woman making this claim, I may have to look further, but the premise actually states that the link has already been broken forever. I do not believe that it will be re-established by living a little longer. Therefore, based upon objective observation, I can state that their claims are only subjective. They may feel or think or believe that they have had intercourse with other beings, but they cannot prove it so that I can see it.

I believe that the record claims that this was different at one point in time (a record both biblical and mythical) and my premise provides a rational reason why it might have existed then and not now. In any case, if we believe my premise, these claims of psychic interaction with gods can only be subjective and not have the authority to "bind" us to belief or action. The message/writings of those that had objective and proven interaction with the genetic capablity to prove it, these may be different.

Kosh

<collection of musical tones>, translated: The scientific method is indeed a 3 edged sword.

Keith Jentoft

I appreciate your response. There is an interesting book by David Powlison on the interaction between Jesus and demons called Power Encounters. Dr. Powlison maintains that every “ekbalistic” encounter with demons had to do with the tangible and physical, with most encounters healing very objective disease. The mute in Matt 9:33, epileptic in Matt 11, sick daughter in Matt 7:26. In each case it wasn’t a demon of some moral failure or small item like a headache. There was objective proof that caused even those who didn’t like or believe to acknowledge that Jesus had some unusal kind of power/authority. While this seems to indicate that at least some demons can afflict us physically through disease, this isn’t the tangible physical type of interaction that I am addressing in my premise. I simply look at it as support that something beyond the current measuring capabilities of science occurred. Perhaps one day we will understand the nature of the energy in the same way we now understand electricity and it will not seem “supernatural.”

Your second paragraph goes right to the heart of a key point, the origin of evil. If God is only good and He created all, then where did evil come from? Some would have Him be the author of evil. There is a long historical debate that concerns this issue. The answer I believe is found in “providence.” Providence is exactly what you call the “hidden” part of God. We see it unfold around us as history. There is also the revealed expression of God as He has chosen to reveal Himself. The revealed is not all that there is of God however, just what He has chosen to give us. There are many “odd” concepts when we deal with the spiritual directly. In 1 Kings 22:21 we have a glimpse of heaven, similar to Job 1, in which God send Ahab a deceiving spirit to lead him to destruction. This spirit form God was bent on leading Ahab to his death. We see God allowing Satan to afflict Job, but not for punishment. We see an interesting parallel expression between the “anger of God” and Satan in the passages in 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chron 21:1. Even in the NT we find that God sent Paul an angel of Satan to help Paul by keeping him from getting proud in 2 Cor 12:7. Was the angel of death sent by God in Exodus a “nice guy” or something closer to Satan. There are references that imply the host of God refers at times to the bad angels. We see God speaking to the king of Babylon to lead him to destroy Jerusalem, His city, via forbidden divination in Ezek 21:19-23.

As you returned to the original question, I appreciated how you distilled my answer to; God implemented a genetic change in humans “to protect them from beings He created.” It is a very good summary and you have grasped my premise. God uses many ways to protect us from beings He has created. Why is it so unusual that God would protect one being He created from another one? We do so within our families and we do so within society. The most obvious way is civil authority that He established to protect men from each other. Paul in Romans 13 commanded Christians to submit to the civil authorities when Nero was on the throne. Even Nero protected men from each other to some extent and people were able to travel and trade in his empire.

Regarding people being “possessed” by demons, I think that 2 Timothy 2:24 would be a clearer picture of what I believe, “The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.” I believe that the devil is extremely open minded regarding how we do his will. I do not believe that the devil makes us be selfish, he encourages us to be selfish in whatever way we desire to express it. We simply struggle with which selfish actions give us the most pleasure, not whether we should be or not. Ultimately, the hypocrisy and arrogance of the Pharisees was worse than many actions we consider bad. I think that the core issue concerning propagating Satan’s will is linked to “who speaks for God?” The Pharisees claimed to and were told, “in vain do you worship me teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” Satan would encourage vain worship of God. The teachings of men claiming their own words are God’s is broad-based. Mohammad claims to, Joseph Smith claims to, even the Pope (within a qualified context) claims to, charismatic modern Christian “prophets” claim to, and finally the mystics and occultists claim to as well. All these men base their claims on subjective feelings or experience. I don’t doubt that there are experiences but how do I know that they are God?

I remain skeptical of all men who claim to speak for God on the basis of subjective feelings or revelations that I cannot objectively review. This is a core of my premise and why, while I acknowledge that the spiritual world exists, I don’t look to the occult for hidden knowledge because I don’t trust anybody’s subjective revelations. Noah claimed to speak for God and an objective flood came that proved his message. Moses claimed to speak for God to Pharaoh and the record provides objective proof from the mouths of Pharaoh’s own magicians. Moses’ communications were objective and when Korah questioned and disputed them, an objective proof was observed with the ground opening up and swallowing them alive. If I am going to trust the message of someone claiming to speak for God I will choose the objective message with credible witnesses. I believe that this happened and we have the record in 1 John 1, “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.” I acknowledge this is an assumption on my part, but the claims that are made are not from mystics but normal men who saw, touched and interacted physically with the spiritual that I no longer have objective access to – for the reasons stated in my premise.

You are welcome to follow occultists or spirits that you interact with yourself. Based upon my assumptions, this seems more dangerous and less sure than an objective message.