Keith Jentoft

This is in response to your article by Farrell Till regarding mythology. I have a theory that I believe is supported by the Biblical record and would resonate with theories of a "lost civilization" that left its influence world-wide. It would also have implications in myth and mythology. If man could physically interact with beings we now call spirits and this interaction produced objecive "proof" in the form of women giving birth to a hybrid creature, then there would be an objective and factual basis to myths. That these historical accounts were corrupted over time would not eliminate similarities between them. My premise is that at an earlier time humans had genetic capabilities that enabled them to interact with spirits and that this has been lost - which is why what was claimed is now unobservable. The objective reality of interaction degraded to a subjective experience.

I believe that the Bible teaches that up to a certain point in history, the genetic capabilities of humans was such that they could interact physically with what we now call "spirits." These beings came from heaven and interacted with men. While we once had this ability, it has been genetically "lost." This capability is recorded in the Biblical accounts of God speaking with Adam in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3. God and two angels come and speak and eat with Abraham in Genesis 18. Jacob physically wrestles with an angel in Genesis 32. I believe that a world-wide physical interaction with spirits existed at that time in history and that this left the record of civilization that is documented in myths and religous cultures world-wide. If "beings" appeared and interacted with man physically they would appear to be super-men of some type. This fits very well with the myths of Babylon, Greece, Scandinavia, and the Germanic Tribes. The Gilgamesh epics are consistent with this type of world-view. The question comes up, has this changed and if it has, why?

I believe that the Biblical answer is found in Genesis 6:4 in the short article that I wrote below. I would apreciate your comments.

Keith Jentoft



NEPHILIM – Physical Interaction with Spirits: Then and Now

Thesis:
There was a period in time in which humans had the capability to interact physically and directly with spirits. The Nephilim, the result of a sexual union between angels and women (Genesis 6:2,4) were objective “proof” of the capability of an objective interaction and they existed pre-flood and post-flood (Numbers 13:33). God’s solution to make this interaction cease was to alter man’s genetic code such that he would only live 120 years (Genesis 6:3). The capability to objectively interact with spirits was somehow “linked” to the observable genetic capability of living for mare than 120 years. Once this capability ceased and men lived less than 120 years, the capability to procreate directly with spirits ceased and no new Nephilim were created. There is a direct father-to-son record from Adam to Moses with every man living for more than 120 years. This stops with Moses.

Physical/Objective vs. Subjective
If the thesis is true, all of the promises God gave to the people of promise, from Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were objective and tangible. These men did not simply feel God spoke to them, they saw and physically interacted with Him in ways we cannot do now. Moses was the last recorded Hebrew as having an unbroken genetic lineage capable of this capacity. Moses received the Law of God from angels (Acts 7:53; Galatians 3:19; Hebrews 2:2) and wrote the first 5 books of the Bible containing the promises of God. These 5 books are the foundation of the balance of the Old Testament and contain the promise of salvation and Messiah.

After Moses, man's physical interaction with spirits is limited because a previous genetic capability is now lost forever. Man no longer eats with angels and the appearances of angels is limited to sight and sounds or touches when sleeping. God limits His interaction through prophets who were less than Moses (Deut 34:10)whose words were to be tested against the God depicted in the 5 books of Moses (Deut 13:2). Moses, while commandeding against re-establishing contact with the spiritual world on our initiative with techniques or altered states of consciousness, promises that God will raise up a prophet like himself in the future(Deut 18:9-18) who will bring us words to obey (Galatians 3:16-19). I believe that this great prophet Moses predicted will have genetic uniqueness that will somehow bridge that which was lost.

God raised up lesser prophets after Moses through Malachi followed by a 400 year period where there were no prophets. Next there is an angel that comes to a priest and announces the coming of a prophet before the great prophet Moses promised (Luke 1:9-23). This same angel announces to a virgin that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and she will bear a son. This son is born and is unique genetically. He is not the result of the union of a man’s sperm and woman’s egg. He is unique and claims to be God’s son and even God Himself. This man is God and is the one prophet Moses promised (Acts 3:22; 7:37; Hebrews 1:1-3). God again speaks directly to man and communicates His promises, new promises, physically as a man and not through an intermediary. Real words to real men as in the time of the Patriarchs. We have a time unique since the time of Moses where God interacts objectively with man as a man and is touched and eats with him (1 John 1:1-3). This man claims that His words and promises are God’s promises and words. In addition to performing supernatural miracles on command, this man claims His words are true and to prove it, if he is put to death He will raise up again and come to life after three days (Matt 12:40;26:61;27:40;27:63; Mark 8:31;9:31;10:34;14:58;15:29; John 2:19-21). He is killed and raised again as He claimed and seen by over 500 witnesses. He provides objective proof for the claims He made that He speaks for God concerning the spiritual world.

Before leaving and going bodily into heaven, this man appoints other men as His spokesmen to teach His words. This was done in the presence of credible witnesses who actually heard and saw this appointment with their minds and bodies. The message that this man, and the men that He Himself objectively appointed, was written down on paper and the last chapter was finished by the last of these men before he died. This message contains the promise of eternal life to all those that believe it. It is all we need for life and godliness (1 Peter 1:1-3). It is not the product of mysticism or subjective revelations or unprovable experiences. This is an objective message given with objective proofs to witnesses to be understood by our minds, believed in our hearts, and according to the promises – ultimately experienced in our bodies. This one who claimed that He would be raised from the dead also claimed that His plan for eternal life was the only and unique one. All other claims coming from subjective experiences and mystical non-provable sources were wrong and would lead only to death, an eternal death of suffering and judgment. The final claim of this man is that He is going to return bodily and rule tangibly in this world and fulfill in a physical objective way all of the promises He made and were written down to those who believed in them.


Adam 930 (Gen5:5)
Seth 912 (Gen5:8)
Enosh 905 (Gen 5:11)
Kenan 910 (Gen 5:14)
Mahalale 895 (Gen 5:17)
Jared 962 (Gen 5:20)
Enoch 365 (Gen 5:23) God took him
Methuselah 969 (Gen 5:27)
Lamech 777 (Gen 5:31)
Noah 950 (Gen 9:28)
Shem 600 (Gen 11:10)
Arpachshad 438 (Gen 11)
Shelah 420 (Gen 11)
Eber 464 (Gen 11)
Peleg 239 (Gen 11)
Rue 239 (Gen 11)
Serug 230 (Gen 11)
Nahor 148 (Gen 11)
Terah 205 (Gen 11:26, 32)
Abraham 175 (Gen 25:7)
Isaac 180 (Gen35;28)
Jacob 147 (Gen 47:28
Levi 137 (Ex 6:16)
Kohath 133 (Ex 6:18)
Amram 137 (Ex 6:20)
Moses 120 (Deut 34:7)

-DM-

Hello Keith,

Please see the Feedback FAQ. This doesn't tell us what we need to know with regard to what article it is that you have in mind. Looking at the author page for Farrell Till, I don't see any article which I can readily identify as "regarding mythology." Perhaps the article you have in mind was one that he wrote for his magazine, The Skeptical Review.

I have moved this feedback to the Biblical Criticism & History forum. I have nevertheless notified Farrell Till of your feedback. Perhaps he will take part in the discussion.

-DM-

Doctor X

Keith:

'tis not angels but the sons of the gods--bene elohim--that mate with the women to found the race of heros.

Methinks the shortest answer is that they are good stories. You have to assume existence of a supernatural that, for some reason, no longer can interact with man. I am afraid I must for for the lesser of the assumptions--they were stories.

--J.D.

Keith Jentoft

The following article that I found on this website written by a skeptic is an excellent explanation on what the Biblical record defines as the sons of the gods. Mr. Till doesn't believe the text but I applaud him in explaining what the text means.

http://www.infidels.org/library/maga...4/4duck91.html

The explanation of this text by Mr. Till is exactly what I am addressing in my premise - a rational reason why this existed then and not now.

Doctor X

However, Till appears to conflate understandings of the Nephilim to make them giants which is a mistake in Genesis 6:1-4:

According to Forsyth:

That nitpick aside, he seems to appropriately recognize the remnants of polytheism in the texts.

References:

Forsyth, Neil. The Old Enemy: Satan & the Combat Myth. Princeton University Press, 1987.

Speiser, E.A. Genesis. Doubleday Anchor, 1964.

Keith Jentoft

The Nephilim are again named and described in Numbers 13:32-33.

Numbers 13:30
30Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “We should by all means go up and take possession of it, for we will surely overcome it.” 31But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are too strong for us.” 32So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33“There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”


This explicitly described their stature as giants. The sons of Anak were part of the Nephilim. These genetic hybrids continue through their progeny in the Biblical record to 1 Chron 20:4-8 after which they disappear.

Doctor X

Yes, but you cannot conflate Genesis with Numbers like that. You cannot assume that the earlier myth used in Genesis is the same as in Numbers. Granted, later redactors--and the author of Genesis Apocryphon--harmonize the descriptions.

It is a bit like assuming that Adam Smith agrees with Karl Marx because both of their books appear in the same library.

--J.D.

Mageth

If man could physically interact with beings we now call spirits and this interaction produced objecive "proof" in the form of women giving birth to a hybrid creature, then there would be an objective and factual basis to myths.

The most obvious "objective and factual basis to myths" is that humans made them up.

Doctor X

Indeed, with all due respect to Keith, methinks he is building a veritable house of cards that falls as the assumptions fall.

What is interesting when considering whether "myth could be true" is the science behind the claim. Someone here posted a while back how much water had to fall for the biblical flood myths to have happened--basically, you have a global waterhammer that would flatten everything! Similarly the creation myths.

So . . . even if we make the Genesis Nephilim "giants"--consider the impossibility of a human giant! Of course, one can wave his theological hands and claim "anything is possible," but I am afraid a convincing argument that is not!

--J.D.

Keith Jentoft

I believe that the book means what it says and is factually accurate, but not historically exhaustive. I believe it when it says that Moses wrote it. I also believe that it is inspired. I agree with you that this is an "unprovable" assumption on my part. You perhaps have made the assumption that it is simply another book of poetry and baseless myth. Obviously we will arrive at different conclusions based upon our inital assumptions. I am not a "mystic" or psychic, but looking for an objective rational solution to an odd event. I have put forth a premise that I believe is logically consistent, based upon my assumptions. I am looking for flaws in the premise given the assumptions. If what I am postulating is true, what we consider the "supernatural" would be in part be understood, and not necessarily supernatural. There are many things that we understand now in science that would have been considered supernatural even a few generations ago. There are still things theorized by science that we are unable to measure or detect. That there is a theory or premise regarding an undetected force or particle (say gravitons) doesn't mean the theory is necessarily false. I acknolwedge that we don't necessarily detect what I allow to exist, though some make that claim. Perhaps it is something like the particles that we still seek out with greater and bigger cyclotrons.

I have submitted a premise to "infidels.org" that states a theory of why there may have been physical interaction with beings that is lost to us now. I also would use the myths as supporting evidence that something factual once existed that is currently poorly understood but not necessaarily false. My idea is not something that can be proven more than the idea is consistent with the factual evidence and the texts. That is all I hope to accomplish and looked here for support in finding the weaknesses in the logic and presentation. Mr. Till has done excellent work and I am grateful for his contribution.