maryhelena

Always amazing to see the lengths the JC historicists will go to to defend their position....:banghead:

1) a crucified JC messiah figure - by agents of Rome.
2) Rom.13. Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted..

Rather than rationalizing this contradiction - i.e. it was the Roman agents that were in the wrong, not Rome itself - try instead to look at the history of the relevant time period to see if there was any social/political change that could be reflected in 'Paul's' position of the futility of rebelling against Rome.

The anointed Jewish King and High Priest, Antigonus, was bound to a cross, flogged and slain by Rome's agent, Marc Antony, in 37 b.c. Rome, in this historical context, is indeed the big Bad Guy.

However, further down the line, during the gospel JC time frame, Philip the Tetrarch ruled for 37 years (going with Josephus for the moment..). The gospel JC story is interested in this historical figure. Some early disciples coming from Bethsaida; and it was in Casearea Philippi that the gospel JC story places the disciples asking JC who he was. If this is so, and I think it is so, then what is relevant here is that such a social/political situation would automatically influence 'Paul's' view of Rome. As for a biblical parallel - we have Joseph as a ruler under Pharaoh.

So, one ruler, Antigonus, a rebel or fighter, against Rome. A second ruler, Philip the Tetrarch, (referred to in an Nabatean text as .."our Lord Philip") as a ruler under Rome. That is the historical situation on the ground; that is the social/political context that could well have motivated an early christian writer to write the sort of thing attributed to 'Paul' in Rom.13.

That's the historical situation. How 'Paul' uses that social/political context in his philosophizing - well, we can all take turns at reading his mind...
But I'd bet my bottom dollar he was not telling his readers to become doormats to the abuse of political power.

sotto voce

Blood is pictorial token, not physical necessity. It is token of death, and not just physical death, but of spiritual death. Now spiritual death involves conscience, that can be guilty. If guilt is unfelt, the Christian message is meaningless. That is why Jesus said that he came for 'the sick', i.e. those who felt a sense of guilt for wrongs committed. In the biblical perspective, those who feel guilt, and feel it enough, are grateful that the punishment that they deserve for their wrongdoing, and it's an eternal and terrible one, has been taken by Jesus. Out of gratitude, they live their lives for him, being 'bought with a price'. For those who feel no sense of guilt, none of this can apply, and it can be ignored.

Montgomery Scott

My take on the whole story was that the leaders of the synagogue, the Scribes and Pharasees arrested Jesus for heresy. They themselves did not have the power to execute prisoners without authorization of the Roman government (or they would have without them), so off they went with Jesus in tow.

They went to the Romans and said that Jesus was offending the social order and calling himself God. Probably Pilate asked the Scribes "That asshole Tiberius thinks he's a god too, so what?" The Scribes counter that Jesus is a tax dodger and telling others not to be loyal to the government. The Gospels somewhat look at tax collecting in a dim light, although Jesus himself told his followers to give unto Caesar and all that.

Pilate thought the whole thing stupid, but an occupier needs to kiss some ass to the locals. No matter how brutal the Roman might have been to the local population, they were not in the position to make the population angry. This was before guns and everyone had a sword, knife or something to kick ass with. and the Romans would not be at an advantage in the short term.

The Romans gave the problem back to the Jews, stating that either Jesus or a death row criminal named Barrabus would die or be free. This was the local culture. The Romans washed their hands of it. This is where the term comes from. Mrs. Pilate got a bit freaked out, but that was from the mushrooms and a crazy dream.

aa5874

Salvation through the Crucifixion is a LATE invention and was NEVER intended by the author of the Short-Ending gMark.

The earliest Jesus story in the Existing Codices is NOT a Savior.

It is documented.

Please examine Sinaiticus gMark.

Mark 4 Please, we are NOT dicussing the emotional value of a crucifixion. We are analysing the the story of the crucifixion of Jesus in Existing Codices and have shown that the earliest Jesus was NOT a Savior because of the Crucifixion.

In gMark, when Jesus was crucified so-called prophecy was fulifilled.

Mark There is NOTHING about Salvation of all mankind by the crucifixion in the Short-ending gMark.

outhouse

did he? or did he send peter fishing instead?


he did not pull money from his purse and pay.

outhouse

you overthink the issue


jesus was invisible and unknown to the temple governement in a sea of 400,000 people.


this was a big big roman payday equivalent to millions of todays dollars, Pilate and Caiaphas wanted one thing PEACE so it would go off without a hitch.

the people were on edge, ready to revolt as it was without some illiterate hick backwater jew getting ticked off over the over taxation in the event and tipping tables over calling the bank tellers thieves.

outhouse

paul is not a good source for jesus death, so bringing himn into this is a weak ploy by a myther.


thats funny because one needs a bucket of imagination to follow the myther method, and reason that lacks knowledge

outhouse

ignorance here


Oh so the roman authors, tell the poor hard working jews who are rebelling within this new sect, to keep paying taxes and obey the roman government.

steve_bnk

Comming around? I've long argued the liklihood of an hj based on the political turmoil of the region at the time. He was wandering around calling the elite hyporcites. I wasn't aware of the level of direct collusion between Rome and the temple.

It strengthens my belief there was an HJ on which the gospel tales began. It is a political story embellished.

Can't help but remember the movie Ben Hur.

Roman to the slave rowers.
'We keep you alive to serve this ship. Row well and live.'

aa5874

In the Myth Fable called gMatthew, Jesus gave certain instructions to the "fish catcher". It is the written Jesus story that is being analysed not your imagination.

In the Myth Fables called Gospels, Pilate did NOT even know what Jesus did wrong.

Matthew 27:23 KJVMark 15:14 KJVLuke 23:22 KJV It is the Jesus story that is being analysed NOT what you imagine happened. Try to understand the Jesus story.