Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-28-2005, 04:49 PM

This may not be serious enough for this forum, but -

Why the Jews Rejected Jesus by David Klinghoffer

National Review Online inteview with Klinghoffer

Quote:

NRO: You’re not a Biblical scholar. Why are you wading in such deep waters?

Klinghoffer: Because most professional Biblical scholars don’t believe in religious debate. The ones at secular universities mostly don’t believe there’s such a thing as religious truth — so what would the purpose be in debating? They believe in “dialogue�? — that namby-pamby word, smacking of relativism, designating the activity where professors sit around talking to each other. So it falls to me, a journalist.

NRO: How can the whole of Western Civilization rest on the rejection of Jesus?

Klinghoffer: Because the earliest Christian church was initially hobbled by insisting that new converts adhere to Jewish law — keep kosher, be circumcised, etc. For an adult man to be circumcised was a bummer, let me tell you. The decision was made, however — at a church council in Jerusalem in 49 — to jettison Jewish law as a requirement for new Christians. This was done at the apostle Paul’s insistence, and he explains in Acts that since the Jews were rejecting his presentation of Jesus as savior and messiah, the Christian message would now be taken to the gentiles. Dispensing with Jewish practices like circumcision made this possible. Had the Jews not rejected Paul’s preaching about Jesus, the church likely would have held on to those laws. Had it done so, the church would have remained hobbled, and could hardly have become the world-bestriding institution it is today. Jewish Christianity would have remained a sect in Judaism, and probably would have died out along with other such sects in 70 when the Temple was destroyed by Rome and the Jews scattered. In that case, there would be no Christian civilization, and, among other things, no America as we know it — a country whose founding was deeply influenced by Christian faith. There is a possibility that we would all be Muslims. Had more Jews accepted Jesus, Mel Gibson today might be praying toward Mecca.

His conclusion: God works in mysterious ways. (And God is a Repubican.)

Also reviewed here

Lógos Sokratikós · 03-28-2005, 06:14 PM

One problem there. We wouldn't be muslims. Mohammed was first preached Christianism, then he thought "Well that's a good business, and I always wanted to play Simon Says with millions of people...". No Christianism, no Islam.

freigeister · 03-28-2005, 10:02 PM

This is just more of the same old story where Christ and his beneficent influence come about in spite of the Jews. It's striking how traditionalist Christians and contemporary sceptics are of one mind in separating Christ from Judaism. Here's a relevant quotation to mull over:

Quote:

No one is aware any more that Christianity is Judaism baptized, Judaism with a non-Jewish name. Least of all do the Jews themselves know that Christianity was one of the movements within Judaism, at the very core of Judaism, of prophetic Judaism, which failed, however, to embrace and inspire the whole of Jewry. Just as Protestantism failed to embrace and inspire the whole of Christendom. Christianity would not have become the child estranged from and hostile to its mother's womb, and Christ would have spread forth his influence among his own if ill-fortune had left sufficient time, if there had not been so few years, years of hardship and war, leading to political annihilation. The dissolution of the Jewish nation, and principally you yourselves, have wrenched Christ from his own sphere and cut off his continued influence on Judaism; you have made us hate him. You have made his name a horror to us, you have turned our own blood against us as a scourge; you have obliged us to see Christ in an alien, hostile perspective, from the point of view of your Christianity. (Constantin Brunner / The tyranny of hate. p. 75-6)

LeeBuhrul · 03-28-2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This may not be serious enough for this forum, but -

Why the Jews Rejected Jesus by David Klinghoffer

National Review Online inteview with Klinghoffer

His conclusion: God works in mysterious ways. (And God is a Repubican.)

Also reviewed here

Jesus rejecting the jews?

Anat · 03-29-2005, 06:53 AM

freigeister, it is hard to say what Judaism would have turned out had the Zealots not stopped making sacrifices for Caesar and thus igniting the rebellion, eventually resulting in the Pharisee option being the only viable one, and I do not know how the teachings of the Jewish Christians would have looked like in the context of a Torah-abiding Jewish community, but as Ahad Ha'am showed in his essay 'Between Two Opinions' as moral systems Christianity and Judaism are totally incompatible.

Vorkosigan · 03-29-2005, 07:12 AM

This tidbit from an Amazon review caught my eye...

Christians Milton, Jefferson, Hawthorne, Melville, Twain, and so on.

Jefferson was a Deist, Melville an agnostic, Twain an atheist, Hawthorne a kind of puritan Deist who rejected heaven and hell.....

freigeister · 03-29-2005, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

as moral systems Christianity and Judaism are totally incompatible.

Ah, but prophetic Judaism and authentic Christianity, which are one and the same thing, are not moral systems at all. Indeed, they are opposed to moralism. Moralism is the tool of the ego, and prophetic Judaism and authentic Christianity call on people to rise above their narrow egoistic interests and abandon their self-serving moralism.

Chili · 03-29-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freigeister

This is just more of the same old story where Christ and his beneficent influence come about in spite of the Jews. It's striking how traditionalist Christians and contemporary sceptics are of one mind in separating Christ from Judaism. Here's a relevant quotation to mull over:

I'll go for that. The first and second coming of Christ are personal events which is why Jews and Catholics can live side by side in harmony because they are different. The relationship can be symbiotic and does not have to be parasitic . . . wherefore I call Jews Gods favorite people in Judaism and Catholics Gods favorite people in Catholicism.

Let's face it, when a Jew is born from above he would not call it the second coming while when a Catholic is born from above he would not call it the first coming. 'New' to him, perhaps, but he will soon recognize the Gosples in his own life while the Jew will soon recognize the prophetic messages now become a reality in his life.

One thing is for sure: when Christ comes again he will not be recognized as "the Buddha" by neither Jews or Catholics while in essence they are one and the same.

Just because we share the genesis does not mean that we cannot be two different vehicles to the same end.

freigeister · 03-29-2005, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

This tidbit from an Amazon review caught my eye...

Christians Milton, Jefferson, Hawthorne, Melville, Twain, and so on.

Jefferson was a Deist, Melville an agnostic, Twain an atheist, Hawthorne a kind of puritan Deist who rejected heaven and hell.....

I can never understand why sceptics strive to impose the same narrow definition of who is a Christian as the most strident religious zealots.

Quote:

Our culture is Christian, however unchristian or anti-Christian, in religious terms, our ideas may be, and all of us are Christians. (Constantin Brunner / The tyranny of hate, p. 37)

Even you, Vork

Toto · 03-29-2005, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freigeister

I can never understand why sceptics strive to impose the same narrow definition of who is a Christian as the most strident religious zealots.

Our culture is Christian, however unchristian or anti-Christian, in religious terms, our ideas may be, and all of us are Christians. (Constantin Brunner / The tyranny of hate, p. 37)

Even you, Vork

If you use the term "Christian" for someone who, like Jefferson, does not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or like Vork, who does not believe in a God, then the term "Christian" has no meaning. Why not say that we are all Jews, since our culture has been so influenced by Jews or secular Jews?

At least Gerd Lüdemann decided to call himself a "post-Christian" after he decided that the Resurrection did not happen.

03-29-2005, 07:12 AM	#6
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	This tidbit from an Amazon review caught my eye... Christians Milton, Jefferson, Hawthorne, Melville, Twain, and so on. Jefferson was a Deist, Melville an agnostic, Twain an atheist, Hawthorne a kind of puritan Deist who rejected heaven and hell.....

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03-28-2005, 06:14 PM	#2
Lógos Sokratikós Contributor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Virtually right here where you are Posts: 11,138	One problem there. We wouldn't be muslims. Mohammed was first preached Christianism, then he thought "Well that's a good business, and I always wanted to play Simon Says with millions of people...". No Christianism, no Islam.

03-29-2005, 06:53 AM	#5
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	freigeister, it is hard to say what Judaism would have turned out had the Zealots not stopped making sacrifices for Caesar and thus igniting the rebellion, eventually resulting in the Pharisee option being the only viable one, and I do not know how the teachings of the Jewish Christians would have looked like in the context of a Torah-abiding Jewish community, but as Ahad Ha'am showed in his essay 'Between Two Opinions' as moral systems Christianity and Judaism are totally incompatible.

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