Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel was reborn in 1948.......

That is false since you yourself claimed that Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. You can't have a restoration of a nation that did not exist in the first place as required by Genesis 17:8, which requires that the Jews occupy ALL of the land of Canaan. No matter how many posts that you make, I will always refer back to Genesis 17:8. That is the foundational Scripture for all subsequent debates about the history of the Jewish people. Genesis 17:8 refutes all of your arguments.

You failed to realize that the word "EVERLASTING"(in Genesis 17:8) is a mistranslation, thus you argument falls to pieces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

.......and miraculoulsy has survived many wars attempting to wipe it off the map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

On the contrary, there is nothing miraculous about the greatest military and economic power in human history (the U.S.) self-fufilling a Bible prophecy. It was essentially the U.S. who partitioned Palestine, not the Jews. The Jews could never have paritioned Palestine on their own. No Bible, no partition of Palestine, no self-fulfilled prophecy. It is as simple as that. There is not doubt whatsoever that if the U.S. had opposed the partition of Palestine, the partition would never have happened. It appears that you do not understand what a self-fulfilling prophecy is. I suggest that you conduct some research regarding this issue.

Wrong, you fail to realize that God frequently uses men to fulfill his prophecies. Take a look at Pharoah and Moses, Daniel & Cyrus, etc,etc.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

There are not any good reasons for anyone to believe that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again.

They have won every war waged against them and according to bible prophecy will win every war in the future, that's why its called a prophecy,ie, something that will happen in the future.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if the God of the Bible does not exist.

You obviously don't understand any scripture other than as a text. God uses even Satan( take a look at the book of Job) for his own purposes, God used the Romans which resulted in Yeshua fulfilling prophecy, etc, etc,etc In this context God could even use the United Nations to establish the State of Israel.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Hang on a second. You're the fundamentalist christian around here. Aren't you the lot that rail against the christ-killers? And don't you show such disrespect for the bible that you are willing to change its meaning at the drop of a hat?
spin

I'm sure that in Nazi Germany the term "Jew" was used with the same derision that "fundamentalist christian" is now being used in our present day society. Regardless according to scripture nobody "killed" christ, he voluntarily laid down his life.

arnoldo · 01-20-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Now Johnny's true colors are beginning to show. He is a Anti-semite Bible hating critic. Its hard to imagine that he was a envangalist for 30 years.

I figured there was a "Jonah-complex" lurking there somewhere. Anyway God used Saul who was persecuting and murdering christian so I can see how God is teaching us a lesson here also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

If Jews are murderes what about the Europeans, Egyptians, indeed all tribes? Your singling out the Jews shows that you are a bigot, and hateful man.

True, all nations, tribes and tongues have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, That's is why God used Israel to bring his son Yeshua into the world to save all mankind.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

There are not any good reasons for anyone to believe that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

They have won every war waged against them.......

That is patenly false. The Philistines demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. So did Nebuchadnezzar. According to you, so did the Egyptians. In 70 A.D. the Roman emperor Titus went to Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and killed lots of Jews. During the early part of the second century, Trajan went to Palestine to put down a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. I suppose that you will claim that if God had not protected the Jews that Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 Jews. It is worth nothing that many Jews have been injured and killed since Palestine was partitioned in 1948.

Is it your position that Abraham had the right to preseuate and kill the Canaanities when they were in Palestine before he was?

The partition of Palestine was not fair because the Jews got control of Jerusalem, and because Jews got far more land per person than Palestinians got.

Of course, God is not fair since with parasites alone he has killed more people than all of the wars in history. What did God or anyone else gain from that?

Without the help of the U.S. and Britain, the Jews would not have won any wars. Did Abraham have any help from other humans? Well of course he didn't, so why do Jews need help from other humans today? The best evidence that God helps Jews would be if they did not need any help from other humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

.......and according to Bible prophecy will win every war in the future, that's why its called a prophecy, i.e., something that will happen in the future.

No, there are not any Scriptures that say anything at all about the partition of Palestine, and that from that time forward the Jews will never be kicked out of Palestine again.

Genesis 17:8 is the necessary foundation for ALL debates about the return of Jews to Palestine. It says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Today, Jews do not occupy anywhere near all of Palestine. According to you, Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. Based upon Genesis 17:8, and your claim that Jews have never occupied all of Canaan, Jews could not possibly have reestablished a nation that they never had.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 09:02 AM

Considering that God has killed far more people with parasites alone than all of the wars in history, and that if I had the ability to heal sick people, I would, arnoldo's and sugarhitman's claims that I am anti-Semitic and anti-God are patently absurd. If they wish to debate the character of God, then I invite them to participate in a thread at the GRD Forum that is titled 'Justifying BibleGod's Atrocities.'

Abraham stole land from the Canaanites. He persecuted and killed them. That was wrong. God could easily have peacefully establised a homeland for Abraham somewhere else.

The "good behavior" argument is patently absurd because a loving God would never have caused innocent Jewish babies to suffer because of their parents' disobedience. In addition, a loving God would never cause animals to kill each other, and the kill people too.

If God treated people right, no one would oppose him.

sugarhitman · 01-20-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

There are not any good reasons for anyone to believe that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again.

That is patenly false. The Philistines demolished the Jews on numerous occasions. So did Nebuchadnezzar. According to you, so did the Egyptians. In 70 A.D. the Roman emperor Titus went to Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and killed lots of Jews. During the early part of the second century, Trajan went to Palestine to put down a Jewish uprising and killed 500,000 Jews. I suppose that you will claim that if God had not protected the Jews that Trajan would have killed 1,000,000 Jews. It is worth nothing that many Jews have been injured and killed since Palestine was partitioned in 1948.

Is it your position that Abraham had the right to preseuate and kill the Canaanities when they were in Palestine before he was?

The partition of Palestine was not fair because the Jews got control of Jerusalem, and because Jews got far more land per person than Palestinians got.

Of course, God is not fair since with parasites alone he has killed more people than all of the wars in history. What did God or anyone else gain from that?

Without the help of the U.S. and Britain, the Jews would not have won any wars. Did Abraham have any help from other humans? Well of course he didn't, so why do Jews need help from other humans today? The best evidence that God helps Jews would be if they did not need any help from other humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

.......and according to Bible prophecy will win every war in the future, that's why its called a prophecy, i.e., something that will happen in the future.

No, there are not any Scriptures that say anything at all about the partition of Palestine, and that from that time forward the Jews will never be kicked out of Palestine again.

Genesis 17:8 is the necessary foundation for ALL debates about the return of Jews to Palestine. It says "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Today, Jews do not occupy anywhere near all of Palestine. According to you, Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. Based upon Genesis 17:8, and your claim that Jews have never occupied all of Canaan, Jews could not possibly have reestablished a nation that they never had.

Wow! He was talking about Israel winning all the previous wars between Israel and the Arabs in modern times. Not the wars in their complete history, o man who does not listen. :wave:

spin · 01-20-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Hang on a second. You're the fundamentalist christian around here. Aren't you the lot that rail against the christ-killers? And don't you show such disrespect for the bible that you are willing to change its meaning at the drop of a hat?

I'm sure that in Nazi Germany the term "Jew" was used with the same derision that "fundamentalist christian" is now being used in our present day society.

More like flat-earthers are in derision today in any society. You'd wish to be the martyred soul, but your are fantasizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Regardless according to scripture nobody "killed" christ, he voluntarily laid down his life.

You are denying christian history regarding the christ-killer stuff. But that's understandable for anyone with a little moral fibre.

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 01-20-2008, 09:21 AM

The partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned. If Jewish history and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Jews had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties, there is no way that the U.S. would have approved of Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem. There is not doubt whatsoever that the partition of Palestine is a bona fide case of a Bible based, self-filfilling prophecy.

Historically, humans have acquired land largely by military means. The partition of Palestine is only one more example of the acquisition of land by military means.

If Jews and Palestinians were contesting the ownership of land in a remote desert region in Australia that had no valuable natural resources, Jews, Muslims, and conservative Christians would be quite interested in those squabbles, but no one else in the world would.

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01-20-2008, 09:02 AM	#437
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Considering that God has killed far more people with parasites alone than all of the wars in history, and that if I had the ability to heal sick people, I would, arnoldo's and sugarhitman's claims that I am anti-Semitic and anti-God are patently absurd. If they wish to debate the character of God, then I invite them to participate in a thread at the GRD Forum that is titled 'Justifying BibleGod's Atrocities.' Abraham stole land from the Canaanites. He persecuted and killed them. That was wrong. God could easily have peacefully establised a homeland for Abraham somewhere else. The "good behavior" argument is patently absurd because a loving God would never have caused innocent Jewish babies to suffer because of their parents' disobedience. In addition, a loving God would never cause animals to kill each other, and the kill people too. If God treated people right, no one would oppose him.

01-20-2008, 09:21 AM	#440
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	The partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the Bible did not say anything about Jews, the partition of Palestine would never have happened. In addition, if the Axis powers had won the Second World War, the partition of Palestine would not have happened. The U.S. emerged from the Second World War as the greatest military and economic power in human history. No nation or group of nations would have been able to oppose the wishes of the U.S. that Palestine be partitioned. If Jewish history and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Jews had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties, there is no way that the U.S. would have approved of Palestinians getting control of Jerusalem. There is not doubt whatsoever that the partition of Palestine is a bona fide case of a Bible based, self-filfilling prophecy. Historically, humans have acquired land largely by military means. The partition of Palestine is only one more example of the acquisition of land by military means. If Jews and Palestinians were contesting the ownership of land in a remote desert region in Australia that had no valuable natural resources, Jews, Muslims, and conservative Christians would be quite interested in those squabbles, but no one else in the world would.

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