Johnny Skeptic

Regarding the Babylon prophecy, all expert fundamentalist Christian sources that I have read, including five Bible commentaries, disagree with your interpretation of the prophecy. Some fundamentalist Christian scholars believe that the rebuilding of Babylon would be a FULFILLMENT of the prophecy.

Consider the following:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-iraq.html

The article says that "Some [Bible scholars] believe that [Babylon] will be rebuilt on the very real estate once occupied by ancient Babylon."

I assume that you have appointed yourself as the sole arbiter of which Bible scholars are right.

Following is more evidence that indicates that you have misinterpreted the Babylon prophecy:

William MacDonald's Bible Commentary

MacDonald has done his homework well. He knows that a number of pieces of the puzzle do not fit, and that some future events must take place in order for them to fit. Surely the writers of Bible commentaries have a lot more credibility than you do. Would you be willing to contact a professor at Wheaton College and ask him for his opinion of the Babylon prophecy? Well of course you wouldn't, even though you have said that you like Wheaton college. Your intent since you first started debating the Babylon prophecy at the IIDB over a year ago has been to keep the Iraqis, who are the challengees, and all experts, including fundamentalist Christian experts, out of the debates. Any Christian who believed that he had good arguments would not always refuse to provide corroboration from other sources and expect people to accept his own uncorroborated personal opinions as evidence. Your own personal opinion is not credible evidence.

If your challenge had any merit, surely at least one prominent fundamentalist Christian in the world would have issed the challenge to the Iraqi government, but that has not happened. Why is that?

Johnny Skeptic

That is cute. Not only do Persians live in Iran, not in Iraq, but according to a web site at http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohisto...pages/651.html, "Arabs constitute the majority in Iraq and the second largest group of Iraqi migrants to Chicago." At any rate, even if you were right that Persians live in Iraq, it would be easy to import some Arabs from other places. Of course, you already knew that, which invites the question "Why did you make a ridiculous argument like that?" I've got it, you wanted to be evasive in spite of the fact that you know that Arabs are as easy to find as Jews are, but your evasive tactic did not work.

There is not doubt that Isaiah 13:19-20 give three ways to overturn the Babylon prophecy, rebuilding Babylon, a shepherd grazing his flock in Babylon, or an Arab pitching his tent in Babylon. Logically, overturning a prophecy that is easy to overturn discredits the Bible just as much as overturning a prophecy that is difficult to overturn. A lie is a lie regardless of how difficult it is to overturn.

Would you like to acknowledge that Persians live in Iran, not in Iraq, and that you were already well aware that even if Persians lived in Iraq, it would be a simple matter to import to Iraq one of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of Arabs who live in many countries in the world?

If God really wanted to issue challenges, he would know that the very best way to do that would be tangibly, in person, in front of everyone in the world. If the God of the Bible does not exist, his methods would never complement his goals, which is the case.

Johnny Skeptic

There is a big difference between assembling and occupying.

But God would not promise to give someone back a house where some rooms were added or subtracted on various occasions as has been the case with Palestine. It is reasonable to assume that it is Jews who are adding to and subtracting from their house, and that God does not have anything to do with it.

On a number of occasions, the Jews have negotiated which parts of Palestine they wish to occupy. Why would any Jew wish to negotiate what God promised Abraham?

Since you do not have any credible evidence that God made a land promise to Abraham, none of your arguments are valid.

If a God exists, I am not aware of any benefits that he or anyone else could derive from him always being invisible, and never audibly speaking with anyone.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Lee Merrill: What evidence do you have that God inspired the Babylon prophecy? What evidence do you have that the Type prophecy preceded the events?

Jack the Bodiless

Incorrect.

Lee, do you belong to some sort of weird denomination which forbids ordinary rank-and-file members from reading the Bible?

I've given you the relevant verses, but you're still refusing to read them.

Babylon will (supposedly) never be inhabited after the MEDES capture and destroy it. This doesn't refer to some vague time in the future when "Babylon becomes uninhabited" (indeed, this only appears to have happened very recently anyhow, when Saddam evicted the remaining inhabitants). It refers to what was thought to be a specific and imminent event: which then failed to happen because the Persians defeated the Medes and then took Babylon intact (and then developed it into the BIGGEST CITY IN THE WORLD).

But it could never qualify as a "fulfilled prophecy" anyhow, because even if you DO choose to completely ignore the Bible and "start the clock" when Saddam evicted the last inhabitant (assuming he did evict all of them, not just those who were living on the palace site): the prophecy then failed again when the Americans set up their base. And even if you then ignore the Americans or "start the clock" when they leave, you'd have to wait forever to confirm that nobody else ever takes up residence.

So, we're now on page 8 of this thread and we still don't have a single example of a verifiably-fulfilled prophecy (not even one that could be called a "lucky guess").

-Jay-

Lee, what on Earth are you talking about? Babylon will never be inhabited again after some arbitrary point at which it becomes uninhabited? But then if it becomes reinhabited, the clock starts over when it becomes uninhabited again?

That's like saying it's going to rain every day. Except when it doesn't. And then it's going to rain every day after that.

And you're still stuck with the overarching fact that there are no Biblical prophecies that relate to people, places, and events that weren't immediately relevant to the Biblical writers - Biblical prophecy reflects an ancient Near-Eastern understanding of the world.

The fact remains that there is not a single Biblical prophecy that can't be explained in terms of either:

A) reasonable (if perhaps optimistic) extrapolations of contemporary events
B) ex post facto writing about historical events that is styled to look like prophecy

Nothing you've presented can't be collapsed into some formulation of A), B), or both. Nothing. Whether or not a supernatural agent is implied as a mechanism of some prediction is a separate issue.

You're not winning any converts here, Lee.

regards,

NinJay

shirley knott

Prove it.
Now you are pushing 2 false claims, not just 1.

No omniscience is required to point out that you have no evidence, no warrant, no reason to accept 'prophecy' as a valid category -- except as a conclusion. Conclusions must be established. You have provided no basis for distinguishing prophecy from predication. You have not established the concept. Prophecy is to reality as N-Rays are to reality. No such thing, and no omniscience required to demonstrate same. Your failure to demonstrate the existence of prophecy *as you define it* serves as all the 'refutation' needed. It's a non-starter.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

lee_merrill

No, its ruin is prophesied, and then after this ruin it will never be inhabited again, is the prediction.

Are you sure? I can think of a few prophecies that refer to all people, for instance, or the heavens wearing out like a garment.

Well, there are prophecies that say A will remain and B will perish, X will never happen and Y always will, Israel will not repent, and then later they will all turn to the Lord, so simple extrapolations won't do here.

Regards,
Lee

shirley knott

What distinguishes those from any prediction whose time has not yet expired?
In other words, you still have no justification for calling this 'prophecy' other than the whim-driven insanity of theology.
There are no prophecies, and continuing to focus on predictions doesn't get you one wit closer to demonstrating that there exists such an item.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Johnny Skeptic

But a good deal of evidence indicates that you have misinterpreted the Babylon prophecy. Even all expert fundamentalist Christian sources that I have read, including five Bible commentaries, disagree with your interpretation of the prophecy. Some fundamentalist Christian scholars believe that the rebuilding of Babylon would be a FULFILLMENT of the prophecy.

Consider the following:

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-iraq.html

The article says that "Some [Bible scholars] believe that [Babylon] will be rebuilt on the very real estate once occupied by ancient Babylon."

I assume that you have appointed yourself as the sole arbiter of which Bible scholars are right.

Following is more evidence that indicates that you have misinterpreted the Babylon prophecy:

William MacDonald's Bible Commentary

MacDonald has done his homework well. He knows that a number of pieces of the puzzle do not fit, and that some future events must take place in order for them to fit. Surely the writers of Bible commentaries have a lot more credibility than you do. Would you be willing to contact a professor at Wheaton College and ask him for his opinion of the Babylon prophecy? Well of course you wouldn't, even though you have said that you like Wheaton college. Your intent since you first started debating the Babylon prophecy at the IIDB over a year ago has been to keep the Iraqis, who are the challengees, and all experts, including fundamentalist Christian experts, out of the debates. Any Christian who believed that he had good arguments would not always refuse to provide corroboration from other sources and expect people to accept his own uncorroborated personal opinions as evidence. Your own personal opinion is not credible evidence.

If your challenge had any merit, surely at least one prominent fundamentalist Christian in the world would have issed the challenge to the Iraqi government, but that has not happened. Why is that? Why are you discussing your challenge with skeptics? They do not have any authority to rebuild Babylon. It is the Iraqi government who you need to deliver your challenge to. Why haven't you done that? I know, you already know that if you did that, the Iraqi governmen would laugh at you. You are even afraid to discuss your opinions about the Babylon prophecy with professors at Wheaton College, which is one of your favorite colleges.