Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ktsai · 11-05-2007, 12:48 PM

A person I met is trying to inculcate me with his beliefs. He emailed me this as proof of the "absolute authority of God's word." Supposedly, these are prophecies in the bible that came true. I don't know much about the historicity of these. Can someone please verify if these prophecies have been fulfilled and are true/false:

Quote:

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" He asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

In A.D.70 the Jew rebelled against the Roman Empire. General Titus was sent to attack Jerusalem and burn the temple where some gold equipment were inside. The melted gold got into the seams of the stone bricks of the walls and stayed there. In order to get the gold the Roman soldiers broke the walls into pieces except the west wall, really no one stone left upon another as the Bible says.

1 Kings 13
The Man of God From Judah
(Happened 930 B.C.)
1 By the word of the LORD a man of God came from Judah to Bethel, as Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make an offering. 2 He cried out against the altar by the word of the LORD : "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: 'A son named Josiah will be born to the house of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who now make offerings here, and human bones will be burned on you.' " 3 That same day the man of God gave a sign: "This is the sign the LORD has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out."
4 When King Jeroboam heard what the man of God cried out against the altar at Bethel, he stretched out his hand from the altar and said, "Seize him!" But the hand he stretched out toward the man shriveled up, so that he could not pull it back.

OLD TESTAMENT 2 Kings 23
(Happened 640 B.C.)
15 Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. 16 Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.
17 The king asked, "What is that tombstone I see?" The men of the city said, "It marks the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and pronounced against the altar of Bethel the very things you have done to it."
18 "Leave it alone," he said. "Don't let anyone disturb his bones." So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.

OLD TESTAMENT Isaiah 44
(Happened 690 B.C.)
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." ' Isaiah 45 1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

OLD TESTAMENT 2 Chronicles 36
(Happened 516 B.C.)
22 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah (Please read Daniel 9:2 and Jeremiah 25:11), the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:

23 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD , the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build a temple for Him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of His people among you-may the LORD his God be with him, and ..."

shirley knott · 11-05-2007, 12:58 PM

I think it would more productive to inquire of your friend what he thinks a 'prophecy' is. Specifically, how is a prophecy different from a prediction, a lucky guess, a coincidence, etc.
The 'argument from fulfilled prophecy' is one of the more ludicrous attempts to justify belief. The absurdity tends to become clear when one focuses on just what the claim to 'prophecy' actually amounts to.

no hugs for thugs,
Shirley Knott

Boro Nut · 11-05-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

A person I met is trying to inculcate me with his beliefs. He emailed me this as proof of the "absolute authority of God's word." Supposedly, these are prophecies in the bible that came true.....

Quote:

Matthew 24
"I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."...In order to get the gold the Roman soldiers broke the walls into pieces except the west wall, really no one stone left upon another as the Bible says.

Oh I see. West walls don't count do they? Stones not of sufficient quality for them to be categorised as unthrowndown I suppose. A little too vertical to be truly on top of each other perhaps. Maybe a bit too large for your average temple wall connoisseur to consider them sufficiently wall-like, being altogether disagreeably immense in nature for their refined tastes. Pointing not up to scratch either I shouldn't wonder. It's probably not even due west.

Boro Nut

davidbach · 11-05-2007, 01:46 PM

Yes, indeed!

There are problems with "prophesies (or predictions) fulfilled", the most significant being that the prophesy may post-date the predicted event, or be redacted to resemble the event.

Far more telling is the fact that there are many unfulfilled prophesies. Just one of these is sufficient to deny <proof of the "absolute authority of God's word">. Quite the reverse, such examples illustrate that "God's word" (if the bible is "God's word" - actually it is an iron age description of what some semi-nomadic tribes thought about god(s)) is fallible.

David.

Agenda07 · 11-05-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

A person I met is trying to inculcate me with his beliefs. He emailed me this as proof of the "absolute authority of God's word." Supposedly, these are prophecies in the bible that came true. I don't know much about the historicity of these. Can someone please verify if these prophecies have been fulfilled and are true/false:

Quote:

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" He asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

In A.D.70 the Jew rebelled against the Roman Empire. General Titus was sent to attack Jerusalem and burn the temple where some gold equipment were inside. The melted gold got into the seams of the stone bricks of the walls and stayed there. In order to get the gold the Roman soldiers broke the walls into pieces except the west wall, really no one stone left upon another as the Bible says.

Firstly, the Gospel of Matthew is generally considered to have been written after 70AD, making this 'prophecy' less than impressive. Any idiot can predict the past with great precision.

Secondly, note how vague the alleged prophecy is: there is no indication of when, why or by whom the temple will be destroyed; hell, it doesn't even specify that the temple will be 'thrown down' by an invading army. Even if we date Matthew to before 70AD it isn't an impressive prediction, all it says is 'this building will be destroyed at some point in the future'; if it said 'in 70AD by the Romans led by Titus' then that might be impressive, but how many buildings from 70AD are still standing today? Most ancient cities have been sacked, burnt down, or abandoned at least once in their history.

TheInerrantWord · 11-05-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

1 Kings 13
The Man of God From Judah
(Happened 930 B.C.)
1 By the word of the LORD a man of God came from Judah to Bethel, as Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make an offering. 2 He cried out against the altar by the word of the LORD : "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: 'A son named Josiah will be born to the house of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who now make offerings here, and human bones will be burned on you.' " 3 That same day the man of God gave a sign: "This is the sign the LORD has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out."
4 When King Jeroboam heard what the man of God cried out against the altar at Bethel, he stretched out his hand from the altar and said, "Seize him!" But the hand he stretched out toward the man shriveled up, so that he could not pull it back.

OLD TESTAMENT 2 Kings 23
(Happened 640 B.C.)
15 Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. 16 Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.
17 The king asked, "What is that tombstone I see?" The men of the city said, "It marks the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and pronounced against the altar of Bethel the very things you have done to it."
18 "Leave it alone," he said. "Don't let anyone disturb his bones." So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.

I don't think this counts as a prediction. The only record of it being fulfilled is in the bible. That's cheating.

neilgodfrey · 11-05-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ktsai

1 Kings 13
The Man of God From Judah
(Happened 930 B.C.)
1 By the word of the LORD a man of God came from Judah to Bethel, as Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make an offering. 2 He cried out against the altar by the word of the LORD : "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: 'A son named Josiah will be born to the house of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who now make offerings here, and human bones will be burned on you.' " 3 That same day the man of God gave a sign: "This is the sign the LORD has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out."
4 When King Jeroboam heard what the man of God cried out against the altar at Bethel, he stretched out his hand from the altar and said, "Seize him!" But the hand he stretched out toward the man shriveled up, so that he could not pull it back.

OLD TESTAMENT 2 Kings 23
(Happened 640 B.C.)
15 Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. 16 Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.
17 The king asked, "What is that tombstone I see?" The men of the city said, "It marks the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and pronounced against the altar of Bethel the very things you have done to it."
18 "Leave it alone," he said. "Don't let anyone disturb his bones." So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.

The same author who narrates a prophecy also narrates its fulfilment. Not a very convincing proof of historicallyfulfilled prophecy.

Quote:

OLD TESTAMENT Isaiah 44
(Happened 690 B.C.)
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." ' Isaiah 45 1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

OLD TESTAMENT 2 Chronicles 36
(Happened 516 B.C.)
22 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah (Please read Daniel 9:2 and Jeremiah 25:11), the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:

23 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD , the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build a temple for Him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of His people among you-may the LORD his God be with him, and ..."

We have a copy of a seal of Cyrus where he is quoted as explaining in his own official words that he returned the various gods to their original cities and temples by the command of the god Marduk. See http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/meso/cyrus.html. No mention made of Yahweh here, but it seems the biblical authors opted for a bit of "me-too-ism" by assuming or stretching his decree to include them too.

Or maybe they really did equate Marduk with Yahweh?? Suggest that possibility to your friend!

One of the ways of dating a text is to compare its contents with known chronological markers. If a text refers to the Persian king Cyrus then it is reasonable to assume it was not written before the time of Cyrus. Why do some people lose their common sense when the text happens to be phrased as a prophecy? That's not being hyper-sceptical. We apply that standard to nonbiblical prophecies. Why should the bible be entitled to a jettisoning of common sense and rationality?

Cege · 11-05-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

In A.D.70 the Jew rebelled against the Roman Empire. General Titus was sent to attack Jerusalem and burn the temple where some gold equipment were inside. The melted gold got into the seams of the stone bricks of the walls and stayed there. In order to get the gold the Roman soldiers broke the walls into pieces except the west wall, really no one stone left upon another as the Bible says.

This is the first I've heard of gold melting into the seams, and recovered by conquering Romans when they pried about the stones. I've looked around the internet for the source of this information but so far only find Christian sources, some of which state that Josephus made this particular claim.

Anyone out there with Josephus' works that confirm or deny that this was the case?

(Either way, the wailing wall seems to contradict claims that no stone was left standing upon another)

Toto · 11-05-2007, 04:14 PM

The wailing wall was a retaining wall, and not part of the Temple per se.

Which doesn't save the alleged prediction from the generally recognized idea that it was written after 70 CE, so it wasn't that hard to get it right.

There are lots and lots of previous threads on prophecies fulfilled in general, and specific prophecies (especially Tyre.) I dont have the time to search now, but anyone can go to the forum page and search (to winnow things down, go to advanced search and seach the titles only.)

Malachi151 · 11-05-2007, 04:38 PM

I have long found this a particularly interesting subject.

#1) You can find the same exact same types of so-called prophecy fulfillment scenarios in the writings of most ancient Mediterrenian cultures. Are all of their prophecies true also, meaning that their gods are real too?

#2) Actually, these so-called prophecies do more to discredit these works than anything else, as they demonstrate that they were often written years, sometimes hundreds of years, after when they are traditionally dated to (and note that sometimes even the traditional dates are much older than even the authors themselves indicated)

#3) See my article on the Gospel O Mark, which goes into detail about to so-called "prophecies" of the New Testament, and how they actually provide evidence that the Gospels are completely fabricated.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

May also want to read:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-05-2007, 12:58 PM	#2
shirley knott Regular Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 416	I think it would more productive to inquire of your friend what he thinks a 'prophecy' is. Specifically, how is a prophecy different from a prediction, a lucky guess, a coincidence, etc. The 'argument from fulfilled prophecy' is one of the more ludicrous attempts to justify belief. The absurdity tends to become clear when one focuses on just what the claim to 'prophecy' actually amounts to. no hugs for thugs, Shirley Knott

11-05-2007, 01:46 PM	#4
davidbach Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 462	Yes, indeed! There are problems with "prophesies (or predictions) fulfilled", the most significant being that the prophesy may post-date the predicted event, or be redacted to resemble the event. Far more telling is the fact that there are many unfulfilled prophesies. Just one of these is sufficient to deny <proof of the "absolute authority of God's word">. Quite the reverse, such examples illustrate that "God's word" (if the bible is "God's word" - actually it is an iron age description of what some semi-nomadic tribes thought about god(s)) is fallible. David.

11-05-2007, 04:14 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The wailing wall was a retaining wall, and not part of the Temple per se. Which doesn't save the alleged prediction from the generally recognized idea that it was written after 70 CE, so it wasn't that hard to get it right. There are lots and lots of previous threads on prophecies fulfilled in general, and specific prophecies (especially Tyre.) I dont have the time to search now, but anyone can go to the forum page and search (to winnow things down, go to advanced search and seach the titles only.)

11-05-2007, 04:38 PM	#10
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I have long found this a particularly interesting subject. #1) You can find the same exact same types of so-called prophecy fulfillment scenarios in the writings of most ancient Mediterrenian cultures. Are all of their prophecies true also, meaning that their gods are real too? #2) Actually, these so-called prophecies do more to discredit these works than anything else, as they demonstrate that they were often written years, sometimes hundreds of years, after when they are traditionally dated to (and note that sometimes even the traditional dates are much older than even the authors themselves indicated) #3) See my article on the Gospel O Mark, which goes into detail about to so-called "prophecies" of the New Testament, and how they actually provide evidence that the Gospels are completely fabricated. http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm May also want to read: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#3

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.