Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-06-2010, 04:07 PM

The holiday celebrates the triumph of tribal Jewish backwardness

Quote:

Jewish orthodoxy possesses the interesting feature of naming and combating the idea of the apikoros or "Epicurean"—the intellectual renegade who prefers Athens to Jerusalem and the schools of philosophy to the grim old routines of the Torah. About a century and a half before the alleged birth of the supposed Jesus of Nazareth (another event that receives semiofficial recognition at this time of the year), the Greek or Epicurean style had begun to gain immense ground among the Jews of Syria and Palestine. The Seleucid Empire, an inheritance of Alexander the Great—Alexander still being a popular name among Jews—had weaned many people away from the sacrifices, the circumcisions, the belief in a special relationship with God, and the other reactionary manifestations of an ancient and cruel faith.

stephan huller · 12-06-2010, 04:26 PM

You see, even back then no one wanted to be white ...

bacht · 12-07-2010, 06:43 AM

"an ancient and cruel faith"

Is Hitchens considered a supporter of political correctness?

Splarnst · 12-07-2010, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Is Hitchens considered a supporter of political correctness?

Is this a joke? :huh:

semiopen · 12-07-2010, 07:19 AM

I've been posting some criticism of Hannukah on the Happy Hannukah thread in AR, but that seems to be a feel good thread.

The new atheists aren't that good with Judaism, basically Htchens is right to criticize, but his arguments aren't that good.

The holdiay maintains its popularity because it competes with Xmas; why not just celebrate Xmas like the Japanese do... I made up a bumper sticker, ""Keep the X in Xmas."

This is the only Jewish holiday with a quasi historical basis, in that Hasmoneans, Seleucids,a Jewish Temple, etc. actually existed.

Other than the dedication of the temple; which might have happened anyway, whether there was a war or not. This historical time is probably most significant as the birth of serious anti-semitism.

The contrast of Hannukah with Christmas is an odd one. Whether Christmas as an actual event is debatable but assuming there was a Yoshke and one is going to spend eternity kissing his ass, why not celebrate his birth? Hannukah is celebrating some obscure but undoubtedly nasty shit that went down... not sure if ancient and cruel is appropriate.

I had this fantasy scenario about a hypothetical Jewish professional wrestler. He is lighting the candles in the ring and some villain comes in and knocks them over or something.

Elijah · 12-07-2010, 07:39 AM

I haven’t read Hitchens and the only thing I know about him is that he is popular so I’m having a hard time understanding what he is saying here.

Quote:

But away with all that, says Lerner. Let us instead celebrate the Maccabean peasants who wanted to destroy Hellenism and restore what he actually calls "oldtime religion." His excuse for preferring fundamentalist thuggery to secularism and philosophy is that Hellenism was "imperialistic," but the Hasmonean regime that resulted from the Maccabean revolt soon became exorbitantly corrupt, vicious, and divided, and encouraged the Roman annexation of Judea. Had it not been for this no-less imperial event, we would never have had to hear of Jesus of Nazareth or his sect—which was a plagiarism from fundamentalist Judaism—and the Jewish people would never have been accused of being deicidal "Christ killers."

Is he saying they are rejecting the “imperialism” of Hellenism or the philosophy that effected their religious beliefs and moved them away from sacrifices? It seems like he is combining them somehow. Is he saying that the Jesus, being a “plagiarsm’ of this, is a rejection of this imperialism or is he including the philosophical influence on their religion as well?

Does anyone know if Hitchens sees Christianity as being influenced by Greek thought or as a counter to Greek influence?

semiopen · 12-07-2010, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

I haven’t read Hitchens and the only thing I know about him is that he is popular so I’m having a hard time understanding what he is saying here.

Quote:

But away with all that, says Lerner. Let us instead celebrate the Maccabean peasants who wanted to destroy Hellenism and restore what he actually calls "oldtime religion." His excuse for preferring fundamentalist thuggery to secularism and philosophy is that Hellenism was "imperialistic," but the Hasmonean regime that resulted from the Maccabean revolt soon became exorbitantly corrupt, vicious, and divided, and encouraged the Roman annexation of Judea. Had it not been for this no-less imperial event, we would never have had to hear of Jesus of Nazareth or his sect—which was a plagiarism from fundamentalist Judaism—and the Jewish people would never have been accused of being deicidal "Christ killers."

Is he saying they are rejecting the “imperialism” of Hellenism or the philosophy that effected their religious beliefs and moved them away from sacrifices? It seems like he is combining them somehow. Is he saying that the Jesus, being a “plagiarsm’ of this, is a rejection of this imperialism or is he including the philosophical influence on their religion as well?

Does anyone know if Hitchens sees Christianity as being influenced by Greek thought or as a counter to Greek influence?

The new atheists are important, but their grasp of Jewish stuff is very poor.

His statement about Maccabean peasants, for example, is laughable. These guys were priests. The war was probably a civil war with the nature of Seleucid participation not completely clear. Their participation was probably limited to securing a path to Egypt.

If he is referring to religious misunderstanding (lies) about the historical events, his remarks are pretty accurate.

Toto · 12-07-2010, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

I haven’t read Hitchens and the only thing I know about him is that he is popular ...

He is popular among atheists. He is the author of God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Elijah · 12-07-2010, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

He is popular among atheists. He is the author of God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything (or via: amazon.co.uk).

He's a TV personality is what I mean by popular.

Have you read his stuff or know if he sees Christianity as being influenced or a response to particular Greek thought?

bacht · 12-07-2010, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

Is Hitchens considered a supporter of political correctness?

Is this a joke? :huh:

No it's not a joke. Surely any regular on these boards will have noticed the trend of bashing ancient Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This is the post-modern orthodoxy: Bible = evil. If Hitchens is pro-Palestinian (as many on the political left are today) it would be natural for him to include ancient Jews in his critique.

What's missing from this picture imo is context: Who were the Hebrews' neighbours and enemies? What was the dark side of Greco-Roman culture? and most importantly: if the Bible is garbage, why did pre-Christian Judaism attract converts, and why did Christianity and Islam sweep through the ancient world?

I guess current "common sense" will answer that some sort of conspiracy or brainwashing was involved.

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12-06-2010, 04:26 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	You see, even back then no one wanted to be white ...

12-07-2010, 06:43 AM	#3
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	"an ancient and cruel faith" Is Hitchens considered a supporter of political correctness?

12-07-2010, 07:19 AM	#5
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I've been posting some criticism of Hannukah on the Happy Hannukah thread in AR, but that seems to be a feel good thread. The new atheists aren't that good with Judaism, basically Htchens is right to criticize, but his arguments aren't that good. The holdiay maintains its popularity because it competes with Xmas; why not just celebrate Xmas like the Japanese do... I made up a bumper sticker, ""Keep the X in Xmas." This is the only Jewish holiday with a quasi historical basis, in that Hasmoneans, Seleucids,a Jewish Temple, etc. actually existed. Other than the dedication of the temple; which might have happened anyway, whether there was a war or not. This historical time is probably most significant as the birth of serious anti-semitism. The contrast of Hannukah with Christmas is an odd one. Whether Christmas as an actual event is debatable but assuming there was a Yoshke and one is going to spend eternity kissing his ass, why not celebrate his birth? Hannukah is celebrating some obscure but undoubtedly nasty shit that went down... not sure if ancient and cruel is appropriate. I had this fantasy scenario about a hypothetical Jewish professional wrestler. He is lighting the candles in the ring and some villain comes in and knocks them over or something.

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