Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Andykiwi · 12-29-2009, 07:10 PM

If you look carefully at the writings in the New Testament that are said to be written by Paul you may notice something interesting...
Paul never mentions Hell - "Death" and "destruction" are the worst punishments he speaks of.

ApostateAbe · 12-29-2009, 07:47 PM

Possibly not, but I would say probably. Hell had a very important place in the teachings of Jesus per all of the synoptic gospels, and Paul's silence on the matter may be due only to his style of preaching rather than his beliefs, the same as so many modern preachers can live their careers without once mentioning their genuine beliefs about hell from the pulpit.

This passage may contain the best potential hint of Paul's belief in hell (1 Corinthians 3:10-15), though it may only be a reference to the apocalyptic destruction on Earth:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

storytime · 12-29-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Possibly not, but I would say probably. Hell had a very important place in the teachings of Jesus per all of the synoptic gospels, and Paul's silence on the matter may be due only to his style of preaching rather than his beliefs, the same as so many modern preachers can live their careers without once mentioning their genuine beliefs about hell from the pulpit.

This passage may contain the best potential hint of Paul's belief in hell (1 Corinthians 3:10-15), though it may only be a reference to the apocalyptic destruction on Earth:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Fire is said to be the purifying element of each man's work. To purify, or to perfect, one then examines and critiques what has been built or is being built. Is it sound? Will it withstand scrutiny? Is it hot air?

ApostateAbe · 12-29-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Possibly not, but I would say probably. Hell had a very important place in the teachings of Jesus per all of the synoptic gospels, and Paul's silence on the matter may be due only to his style of preaching rather than his beliefs, the same as so many modern preachers can live their careers without once mentioning their genuine beliefs about hell from the pulpit.

This passage may contain the best potential hint of Paul's belief in hell (1 Corinthians 3:10-15), though it may only be a reference to the apocalyptic destruction on Earth:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Fire is said to be the purifying element of each man's work. To purify, or to perfect, one then examines and critiques what has been built or is being built. Is it sound? Will it withstand scrutiny? Is it hot air?

I don't know what evidence there is for the myth of fire being a purifying element, but I suspect that the fire has something to do with either hell or the apocalypse, because the passage comes off as eschatological: "...for the day will show it..."

Chili · 12-29-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

If you look carefully at the writings in the New Testament that are said to be written by Paul you may notice something interesting...
Paul never mentions Hell - "Death" and "destruction" are the worst punishments he speaks of.

Pual was a gnostic and not a believer, and yes he knew what hell was and that it never should be part of his vocabulary.

Andykiwi · 12-29-2009, 11:28 PM

A Gnostic? Are you sure?

He IS said to have grown up in the city of Tarsus where the Cult of Mithra had it's center. That Mystery Religion was about achieving salvation and Paul (Saul) would have known about it. It seems to me that he borrowed some of the Mithra ideas and applied them to Jesus.

Web-page about Paul and Mithra...
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/pmithra/index.htm

Paul talks about being "saved", but saved from what? ...since he never talks of hell.

Chili · 12-30-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

A Gnostic? Are you sure?

He IS said to have grown up in the city of Tarsus where the Cult of Mithra had it's center. That Mystery Religion was about achieving salvation and Paul (Saul) would have known about it. It seems to me that he borrowed some of the Mithra ideas and applied them to Jesus.

Web-page about Paul and Mithra...
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/pmithra/index.htm

Paul talks about being "saved", but saved from what? ...since he never talks of hell.

Paul was a gnostic does not mean that he was a Gnostic of that cult but a gnostic in his own right who went throguh the same experience as the man callled Jesus did.

In Christendom we do not get saved from hell but from our own human nature wherein we are divided in our true nature as man. This division exists in our own mind and is why we have a conscious and a subconscious mind which are twain instead of twin and therefore is sub-conscious to our conscious mind where our temporal existence is known. Our salvation then is from this temporal mode of existence for which we must take up residence in our subconscious mind by way of crucifixion or rapture (when the ego is crucified we have no choice but take up residence in our subconscious mind (upper room0) and when the ego raptures that which remains is in heaven.

Hell is when we are consciously aware of this 'upper room' but remain attached to the 'lower' room or conscious mind such as when the veil is only partially rent and the 'great divide' (or unkown) keeps us distant from this upper room. This is how we are said to be 'lukewarm' because we cannot let go of our sin nature etc.

Doug Shaver · 12-30-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

Paul never mentions Hell

Then he probably didn't believe in it -- at least not the lake-of-fire version. He wasn't the sort to beat around the bush about things of that sort. If he had thought that unbelievers were going to burn forever, he'd have said so.

Solo · 12-30-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Possibly not, but I would say probably. Hell had a very important place in the teachings of Jesus per all of the synoptic gospels, and Paul's silence on the matter may be due only to his style of preaching rather than his beliefs, the same as so many modern preachers can live their careers without once mentioning their genuine beliefs about hell from the pulpit.

This passage may contain the best potential hint of Paul's belief in hell (1 Corinthians 3:10-15), though it may only be a reference to the apocalyptic destruction on Earth:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Fire is said to be the purifying element of each man's work. To purify, or to perfect, one then examines and critiques what has been built or is being built. Is it sound? Will it withstand scrutiny? Is it hot air?

Paul seemed to refrain from speculation on the punitive effects of God's judgment: probably out of piety. However, there can be no doubt that in Paul's mind, God's justice would exact retribution (2 Cr 5:10). Mark's Jesus, in contrast dishes out hell, with no holds barred.

It is evident the early Christian ecstatics believed that their experiences were universal and previewed judgment by God of everyone (eg. 1 Cr 3:13, Mk 9:49). The theme of fire is frequent and alludes to a phase of the ecstatic episode known as 'manic fever' from which most vistas of hell / purgatory (or 'test of character') derive in the texts. One is quite literally on fire.

Mt 3:11 he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.

Lk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'
1 Cr 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing

2 Th 1:7 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire

1 Ptr 5:14 Beloved, be not surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you.

Note: Some infections causing high fever are also known to produce symptoms of acute manic delirium. As incidents of feverish deliria are fairly common, 'testimonies' of survivors would strengthen the apocalyptic lore of the early communities.

Regards,
Jiri

Tristan Scott · 12-30-2009, 08:50 AM

But Paul did write a lot about the wrath of God and God's judgment, which would lead one to believe that he may have believed in hell, but he never mentions "hell".

12-29-2009, 07:10 PM	#1
Andykiwi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 2,515	Did (St.) Paul believe in Hell? If you look carefully at the writings in the New Testament that are said to be written by Paul you may notice something interesting... Paul never mentions Hell - "Death" and "destruction" are the worst punishments he speaks of.

12-29-2009, 07:47 PM	#2
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Possibly not, but I would say probably. Hell had a very important place in the teachings of Jesus per all of the synoptic gospels, and Paul's silence on the matter may be due only to his style of preaching rather than his beliefs, the same as so many modern preachers can live their careers without once mentioning their genuine beliefs about hell from the pulpit. This passage may contain the best potential hint of Paul's belief in hell (1 Corinthians 3:10-15), though it may only be a reference to the apocalyptic destruction on Earth: 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

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12-29-2009, 11:28 PM	#6
Andykiwi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 2,515	A Gnostic? Are you sure? He IS said to have grown up in the city of Tarsus where the Cult of Mithra had it's center. That Mystery Religion was about achieving salvation and Paul (Saul) would have known about it. It seems to me that he borrowed some of the Mithra ideas and applied them to Jesus. Web-page about Paul and Mithra... http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/pmithra/index.htm Paul talks about being "saved", but saved from what? ...since he never talks of hell.

12-30-2009, 08:50 AM	#10
Tristan Scott Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southwest USA Posts: 4,093	But Paul did write a lot about the wrath of God and God's judgment, which would lead one to believe that he may have believed in hell, but he never mentions "hell".

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