Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-09-2004, 11:20 AM

princess:

Genesis was (presumably) written in Hebrew, not Greek, so Gen. 29:31 is not necessarily a good guide for the meaning of misei.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this passage in any case. Jacob loved Rachel, and then was deceived into marrying Leah. Would you say that he just loved Leah less, or would the usual meaning of "hate" be approrpriate here?

princess_333 · 09-09-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

princess:

Genesis was (presumably) written in Hebrew, not Greek, so Gen. 29:31 is not necessarily a good guide for the meaning of misei.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this passage in any case. Jacob loved Rachel, and then was deceived into marrying Leah. Would you say that he just loved Leah less, or would the usual meaning of "hate" be approrpriate here?

That was just supposed to show how the word hate was interpreted in a diff way in some versus in the bible..
This is what the interpretation was saying that instead of hate.."Jesus isn't teaching contempt, animosity, hostility or any offensive attitude or deed. The idea is, we are to love Christ MORE than we love our own family, and even our own self! Loving the Lord more than parents ... more than children ... more than brothers and sisters ... EVEN MORE THAN OUR OWN LIVES "

but I don't know for sure anyways, it is one interpretation. I'm not defending Jesus, or the bible, I'm just providing an interpretation that was given to me when I asked the question that started this post...that's all

Gawen · 09-09-2004, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Jacob loved Rachel, and then was deceived into marrying Leah. Would you say that he just loved Leah less, or would the usual meaning of "hate" be approrpriate here?

Or did he really love Rachel. Maybe 'love' has a different meaning as well and doesn't really mean 'love'...but maybe 'liked a little'...or 'wanted to carry her books home from school'...or 'got cozy with'.

If hate can mean "shrink away from"...then love can mean "got cozy with".

Sauce for the goose really... :huh:

DeepWaters · 09-09-2004, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Or did he really love Rachel. Maybe 'love' has a different meaning as well and doesn't really mean 'love'...but maybe 'liked a little'...or 'wanted to carry her books home from school'...or 'got cozy with'.

If hate can mean "shrink away from"...then love can mean "got cozy with".

Sauce for the goose really...

Yeah. Maybe love doesn't mean love, hate doesn't mean hate, kill doesn't mean kill, evil doesn't mean evil, good doesn't mean good, and everything means nothing that it says!!!! Yeah!

And maybe dictionaries and words and languages are useless and meaningless -- and that must mean the Bible is too!

Otherwise the words mean what they mean, or the Bible just isn't communicating to human beings. With all the language confusion, I don't see why God wouldn't make Bibles by himself and distribute a copy to all people, of all nations, in their own languages, PERFECTLY clear on what he wants us to know.

Then again . . . the word probably means 'hate' exactly as it means, and there's no reason for me to think otherwise.

DeepWaters · 09-09-2004, 01:32 PM

SOME OTHER NICE THINGS JESUS SAID:

Matthew 15:4-7

Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"

He is critisizing the religious leaders for NOT doing this (because they do not stone to death their children when they are cursed. Jesus says God told them to do this, but they are not.)

Same here . . .

Mark 7:9

And he [Jesus] said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'"

The Old Testament Law regarding death for cursing one's parents says:

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

By putting one's child TO DEATH???? What does than teach them about respecting their parents? They certainly can't learn anything if they're DEAD!!!! I mean, they're aren't even given a chance to say they're sorry!!!!

How extreme is that?

-------------------

Here's a nice verse where Jesus tells his followers to ABANDON their families (including their children) so they can get a nice reward!

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother [some scriptures say mother or wife] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." ~ Matthew 19:29

How sick is that???? :down:

How can Christians justify these sorts of atrocities?

ten to the eleventh · 09-09-2004, 02:12 PM

Well, I'm with you on the idea that Jesus wanted a cult-like following. Most objections, such as Chili's arise from the Jim Jones connotations of the word "cult." But a "cult" is defined more by the kind of abandonment of customary life, isolation, and control. That is definitely what Jesus was talking about. That was my understanding when I was a Christian, and that is my understanding now.

It is not fair to say that Jesus (assuming HJ) really desired "hatred." He was speaking more of the total abandonment required to truly be his follower. This is where I get my idea of the True Christian (TM), and why I say very, very few people qualify as Christians. A consistent theme in the Gospels and NT, generally is that those who REALLY believe will abandon worldly concerns, focus on doing God's work while hear, and place all concern on the world after. How many "Christians" do you know that are not worried sick about money, friends, POLITICS, career, house, clothes, whatever?

When Jesus says "hate," he is saying that you must abandon concern with your family, yea, your OWN LIFE. This is how I understood it as a Christian, and the meaning is still rather plain, now. This is why we should be like the "sparrows of the field," why we should sell all and give the money to the poor, why we should evangelize without fear of embarrassment. This is why when a thief steals our cloak, we are to offer him our tunic as well. Why we are to turn the other cheek. Why we are to abandon concern for this world and the things in it. The world-abandonment idea is reinforced by the theme of the imminence of its total destruction. God doesn't give a damn about it, and you had better not, either.

And this makes sense. Consider your measly 70-year existence on earth in comparison to eternity in the afterlife. Mathematically, 70/infinity = zero, and that's how much you should worry. Have you met any Christians like that? I'd like to meet them and shake their hands for their honesty.

After all, if you KNEW, for a FACT, that if you would be given $10,000 a day for the rest of your life, and would never be sick, if, for one day, you would run through the streets naked in a cold pouring rain, shouting "I love Jesus!" would you not do it? I would. But that suffering/reward ratio is infinitely greater than the one Christians CLAIM to believe in. Yet, they still cling with all their grip to their possessions, their health, their influence, and their reputation. Many, in fact, are eager capitalists who hoard their wealth while sneering at and deriding those who haven't done as well. The hypocrisy is enough to make you sick.

So show me the Christian, glowing with the love of Christ, foregoing worldly possessions, career ambitions, yea, even his own health, and I'll show you a believer and a VERY, VERY rare person indeed. The rest are just posers who like to think that they believe.

ten to the eleventh

DeepWaters · 09-09-2004, 03:38 PM

Exactly, 10 to the 11th . . .

Let's see what the cost of Christian discipleship is . . .

Give up ALL you have:

“So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.�? - Luke 14:33 (KJV)

Including money . . .

"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." - Luke 16:13

Follow the Jewish Law (there are many other verses besides this one):

"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." - Luke 16:17

. . . And how many Christians follow this one? . . .

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, DO GOOD to those who hate you . . ." - Luke 6:27

'Enemies'? That would include Hitler, Saddam Hussain, and Osama Bin Laden, you know. (Looks like George W. Bush certainly doesn't follow this rule to a T! :rolling: ) 'Enemy' could even mean 'Satan' . . . unless this rule only specifies for 'human' enemies . . . which it does not specify. I suppose you just have to guess that this is not the case!

Chili · 09-09-2004, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ten to the eleventh

Well, I'm with you on the idea that Jesus wanted a cult-like following. Most objections, such as Chili's arise from the Jim Jones connotations of the word "cult." But a "cult" is defined more by the kind of abandonment of customary life, isolation, and control. That is definitely what Jesus was talking about. That was my understanding when I was a Christian, and that is my understanding now.

I am not sure if I stated an objection in this tread but in my opnion you are just as wrong as you ever were. To become a disciple of Jesus we must enter into the reign of God and in this reign we have eternal life. Would it not be very obvious that when we enter into eternal life that our temporal life must first be abandonned? If so, would it not be reasonable to assume that we must hate our very own life enough to abandon it?

Where you go wrong is to assume that we can willfully abandon our own life but that is not possible because the very will to do this must itself be abandonned and that is why the uttering "Abba Father" is an appropriate metaphor for this. This same idea is expressed with the "timely uttering" by William Woodsworth in his "Intimations of Immortality."

You are correct to say that Christianity as we know it is a cult wherein its members must abandon all and follow certain patterns of behavior and so on, but my point was that you cannot purify flesh (a metaphor for our human nature) and therefore it must die . . . but before we can do this we must be born into eternal life and that requires a total abandonment out of hate (sic) for our own failures as a loving human being (not greed or other niceties).

inquisitive01 · 09-09-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

princess:

Genesis was (presumably) written in Hebrew, not Greek, so Gen. 29:31 is not necessarily a good guide for the meaning of misei.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this passage in any case. Jacob loved Rachel, and then was deceived into marrying Leah. Would you say that he just loved Leah less, or would the usual meaning of "hate" be approrpriate here?

I wonder if DeepWaters is aware of this? Actually, I'm even wondering why DeepWaters started this thread in the first place, since it seems his/her mind is already made up anyway. :huh:

DeepWaters · 09-09-2004, 08:07 PM

Quote:

I am not sure if I stated an objection in this tread but in my opnion you are just as wrong as you ever were. To become a disciple of Jesus we must enter into the reign of God and in this reign we have eternal life. Would it not be very obvious that when we enter into eternal life that our temporal life must first be abandonned? If so, would it not be reasonable to assume that we must hate our very own life enough to abandon it?

So, we're supposed to HATE our own lives, yet love others AS WE LOVE OURSELVES (“Love your neighbor as yourself.�? - Mark 12:31)? So, if we love others as much as we love ourselves then I guess we should hate others (because we hate our own life).

I would think that if you love and appreciate the value of your own life, you will value the lives of others -- but not if you hate your own life.

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09-09-2004, 11:20 AM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	princess: Genesis was (presumably) written in Hebrew, not Greek, so Gen. 29:31 is not necessarily a good guide for the meaning of misei. I'm not sure of the relevance of this passage in any case. Jacob loved Rachel, and then was deceived into marrying Leah. Would you say that he just loved Leah less, or would the usual meaning of "hate" be approrpriate here?

09-09-2004, 01:32 PM	#25
DeepWaters Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: U.S. Posts: 945	SOME OTHER NICE THINGS JESUS SAID: Matthew 15:4-7 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'" He is critisizing the religious leaders for NOT doing this (because they do not stone to death their children when they are cursed. Jesus says God told them to do this, but they are not.) Same here . . . Mark 7:9 And he [Jesus] said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'" The Old Testament Law regarding death for cursing one's parents says: 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) By putting one's child TO DEATH???? What does than teach them about respecting their parents? They certainly can't learn anything if they're DEAD!!!! I mean, they're aren't even given a chance to say they're sorry!!!! How extreme is that? ------------------- Here's a nice verse where Jesus tells his followers to ABANDON their families (including their children) so they can get a nice reward! "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother [some scriptures say mother or wife] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life." ~ Matthew 19:29 How sick is that???? :down: How can Christians justify these sorts of atrocities?

09-09-2004, 02:12 PM	#26
ten to the eleventh Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 1,682	Well, I'm with you on the idea that Jesus wanted a cult-like following. Most objections, such as Chili's arise from the Jim Jones connotations of the word "cult." But a "cult" is defined more by the kind of abandonment of customary life, isolation, and control. That is definitely what Jesus was talking about. That was my understanding when I was a Christian, and that is my understanding now. It is not fair to say that Jesus (assuming HJ) really desired "hatred." He was speaking more of the total abandonment required to truly be his follower. This is where I get my idea of the True Christian (TM), and why I say very, very few people qualify as Christians. A consistent theme in the Gospels and NT, generally is that those who REALLY believe will abandon worldly concerns, focus on doing God's work while hear, and place all concern on the world after. How many "Christians" do you know that are not worried sick about money, friends, POLITICS, career, house, clothes, whatever? When Jesus says "hate," he is saying that you must abandon concern with your family, yea, your OWN LIFE. This is how I understood it as a Christian, and the meaning is still rather plain, now. This is why we should be like the "sparrows of the field," why we should sell all and give the money to the poor, why we should evangelize without fear of embarrassment. This is why when a thief steals our cloak, we are to offer him our tunic as well. Why we are to turn the other cheek. Why we are to abandon concern for this world and the things in it. The world-abandonment idea is reinforced by the theme of the imminence of its total destruction. God doesn't give a damn about it, and you had better not, either. And this makes sense. Consider your measly 70-year existence on earth in comparison to eternity in the afterlife. Mathematically, 70/infinity = zero, and that's how much you should worry. Have you met any Christians like that? I'd like to meet them and shake their hands for their honesty. After all, if you KNEW, for a FACT, that if you would be given $10,000 a day for the rest of your life, and would never be sick, if, for one day, you would run through the streets naked in a cold pouring rain, shouting "I love Jesus!" would you not do it? I would. But that suffering/reward ratio is infinitely greater than the one Christians CLAIM to believe in. Yet, they still cling with all their grip to their possessions, their health, their influence, and their reputation. Many, in fact, are eager capitalists who hoard their wealth while sneering at and deriding those who haven't done as well. The hypocrisy is enough to make you sick. So show me the Christian, glowing with the love of Christ, foregoing worldly possessions, career ambitions, yea, even his own health, and I'll show you a believer and a VERY, VERY rare person indeed. The rest are just posers who like to think that they believe. ten to the eleventh

09-09-2004, 03:38 PM	#27
DeepWaters Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: U.S. Posts: 945	Exactly, 10 to the 11th . . . Let's see what the cost of Christian discipleship is . . . Give up ALL you have: “So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.�? - Luke 14:33 (KJV) Including money . . . "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." - Luke 16:13 Follow the Jewish Law (there are many other verses besides this one): "It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law." - Luke 16:17 . . . And how many Christians follow this one? . . . "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, DO GOOD to those who hate you . . ." - Luke 6:27 'Enemies'? That would include Hitler, Saddam Hussain, and Osama Bin Laden, you know. (Looks like George W. Bush certainly doesn't follow this rule to a T! :rolling: ) 'Enemy' could even mean 'Satan' . . . unless this rule only specifies for 'human' enemies . . . which it does not specify. I suppose you just have to guess that this is not the case!

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