Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GakuseiDon · 07-01-2010, 02:28 AM

This is something that came up on another thread, but I thought I'd split it out. Someone said that no-one remembered anything about Jesus.

1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!"

2. Does Paul or other early writers hint at greater knowledge about events in Jesus' life?

I don't know anything for (1), at least in texts from the first few centuries. For (2): I know that Luke and John do, also Papias suggests oral traditions that have disappeared. Paul states about how Jesus was publicly crucified before one group he was writing to, suggesting a play. Anything else?

By the way, I'm assuming a historical Jesus here, and not interested in whether passages support mythicism or historicity. Not that I am stopping others from discussing it here of course, but it's not a discussion I will be involved in.

dog-on · 07-01-2010, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

This is something that came up on another thread, but I thought I'd split it out. Someone said that no-one remembered anything about Jesus.

1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!"

2. Does Paul or other early writers hint at greater knowledge about events in Jesus' life?

I don't know anything for (1), at least in texts from the first few centuries. For (2): I know that Luke and John do, also Papias suggests oral traditions that have disappeared. Paul states about how Jesus was publicly crucified before one group he was writing to, suggesting a play. Anything else?

By the way, I'm assuming a historical Jesus here, and not interested in whether passages support mythicism or historicity. Not that I am stopping others from discussing it here of course, but it's not a discussion I will be involved in.

Does Papias know Luke and John?

GakuseiDon · 07-01-2010, 03:24 AM

No, but I'm not sure of the relevance of your question?

I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm only asking (1) Did they feel the lack of details back then? (2) Are there indications in Paul and the other early Xian docs that there was more information about Jesus?

dog-on · 07-01-2010, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

No, but I'm not sure of the relevance of your question?

I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm only asking (1) Did they feel the lack of details back then? (2) Are there indications in Paul and the other early Xian docs that there was more information about Jesus?

Simply that Luke and John may simply be referring to the gosples of Mark and Matthew (the Gospel of the Hebrews), which are supposedly what Papias refers to.

I am unaware of any indication that there was an acknowledgement of any lack of details regarding the life of Jesus by any of the "first century" epistle writers.

It seems that they had all the information they needed.

GakuseiDon · 07-01-2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-on

Simply that Luke and John may simply be referring to the gosples of Mark and Matthew (the Gospel of the Hebrews), which are supposedly what Papias refers to.

Fair point.

mountainman · 07-01-2010, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

By the way, I'm assuming a historical Jesus here ....

Well I'm glad the assumption is explicit. Would you go so far to say that you're considering the hypothetical conclusion that Jesus was an historical figure?

Huon · 07-01-2010, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!"

I have heard of an "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", quoted by Irenaeus (ca. 185).
Also, Protevangelium of James.

show_no_mercy · 07-01-2010, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

This is something that came up on another thread, but I thought I'd split it out. Someone said that no-one remembered anything about Jesus.

1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!"

2. Does Paul or other early writers hint at greater knowledge about events in Jesus' life?

I don't know anything for (1), at least in texts from the first few centuries. For (2): I know that Luke and John do, also Papias suggests oral traditions that have disappeared. Paul states about how Jesus was publicly crucified before one group he was writing to, suggesting a play. Anything else?

The general trend seems to be Jesus as a salvation figure in heaven in the beginning and then as history goes on more and more details are added about his earthly life.

The early epistles are devoid of any acts or sayings of Jesus (besides 1 Cor 11, which could only be an authentic quote if Jesus already viewed himself as a salvation figure). They either don't know or don't care about his earthly existence (if he even had one). Next come the gospels which talk about his earthly life. Then come the "infancy" gospels about his childhood, I would include the begining of Luke here as well. Then stories about his family members. It's as though the farther we get from the events, the more information gets written about his "human" side.

dog-on · 07-01-2010, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

This is something that came up on another thread, but I thought I'd split it out. Someone said that no-one remembered anything about Jesus.

1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!"

2. Does Paul or other early writers hint at greater knowledge about events in Jesus' life?

I don't know anything for (1), at least in texts from the first few centuries. For (2): I know that Luke and John do, also Papias suggests oral traditions that have disappeared. Paul states about how Jesus was publicly crucified before one group he was writing to, suggesting a play. Anything else?

The general trend seems to be Jesus as a salvation figure in heaven in the beginning and then as history goes on more and more details are added about his earthly life.

The early epistles are devoid of any acts or sayings of Jesus (besides 1 Cor 11, which could only be an authentic quote if Jesus already viewed himself as a salvation figure). They either don't know or don't care about his earthly existence (if he even had one). Next come the gospels which talk about his earthly life. Then come the "infancy" gospels about his childhood, I would include the begining of Luke here as well. Then stories about his family members. It's as though the farther we get from the events, the more information gets written about his "human" side.

Change "the farther we get from events" to "the farther along in the development of the church we get" and I would agree.

aa5874 · 07-01-2010, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

..1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!"

But, if we assume the epistles were early and assume that Jesus was a real man then it can be understood why the Pauline writers did not want to write much about the actual life of Jesus.

It would not be expected that the Pauline writers would have complained about lack of re-collection of the life of Jesus but to AVOID writing about his earthly life knowing that whatever they wrote which was NOT true could have been easily detected by people who knew Jesus was just a crazy-man living in Galilee.

There would have been no benefit for the Pauline writers to write about the actual life of a crazy-man but to claim the crazy-man was raised from the dead as he predicted.

That was the good news.

People thought Jesus was mad when he said he would raised be on the third day but the Pauline writers PROVED everyone was wrong.

In effect, the Pauline writers were saying, "Forget about all the crazy-stuff that Jesus said while on earth, Jesus did have an AFTER life.

We saw him and he spoke to us after he died."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaukedeison

2. Does Paul or other early writers hint at greater knowledge about events in Jesus' life?

If we assume the Pauline writers were early and Jesus was a real man then then it would be seen that the Pauline writers appear to be extremely interested in ONE event. The resurrection of Jesus.

In fact, the Pauline writers gospel is directly linked to the AFTER LIFE of the MAN called Jesus. What Jesus did or said in his real life appear to insignificant.

The Pauline writers seem not to care about Jesus walking on water or that he raised a man called Lazarus from the dead.

The good news was that the crazy-man did as he predicted. He was raised from the dead.

1Co 15:14 -

Quote:

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:17 -

Quote:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins.

"Jesus turned WATER into wine!"

"So what. Joe, the magician, turned WINE into water."

"Jesus walked on the SEA"

"So what. Joe, the magician walked on AIR".

"Jesus was raised from DEAD".

"Now, you're talking. I saw him and he NOW talks to me after he was resurrected." That's GOOD NEWS!!! Joe, the magician is dead."

"Lets tell everybody about the resurrection".

"Great idea"!!!

The Pauline writers are not interested in miracles that Jesus did while he was alive because even if people believed he was equal to God and the creator of heaven and earth there would have been no REAL GOOD NEWS without the ACTUAL resurrection.

And the Pauline writers traveled all over the Roman Empire spreading his GOOD NEWS.

If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins.

07-01-2010, 02:28 AM	#1
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Early Xians: "Anyone remember that Jesus guy?" This is something that came up on another thread, but I thought I'd split it out. Someone said that no-one remembered anything about Jesus. 1. Does anyone know any passage in the early epistles where people complained about a lack of recollection of the life of Christ? Something like "if only people kept more details about his life!" 2. Does Paul or other early writers hint at greater knowledge about events in Jesus' life? I don't know anything for (1), at least in texts from the first few centuries. For (2): I know that Luke and John do, also Papias suggests oral traditions that have disappeared. Paul states about how Jesus was publicly crucified before one group he was writing to, suggesting a play. Anything else? By the way, I'm assuming a historical Jesus here, and not interested in whether passages support mythicism or historicity. Not that I am stopping others from discussing it here of course, but it's not a discussion I will be involved in.

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07-01-2010, 03:24 AM	#3
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	No, but I'm not sure of the relevance of your question? I'm not trying to argue anything here, I'm only asking (1) Did they feel the lack of details back then? (2) Are there indications in Paul and the other early Xian docs that there was more information about Jesus?

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