Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 09-18-2008, 02:10 PM

Assuming Paul was from Tarsus, which had a very large library, why is it thought his references to scriptures refer to the Hebrew Bible?

Would he have considered other works as scriptures as well?

show_no_mercy · 09-18-2008, 05:54 PM

I was just about to post this question :/

hatsoff · 09-18-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Assuming Paul was from Tarsus, which had a very large library, why is it thought his references to scriptures refer to the Hebrew Bible?

Would he have considered other works as scriptures as well?

He called them "Holy" Scriptures (Rom 1:2, 2Ti 3:15), and linked them with prophecy (Rom 1:2, 16:26, 1Co 15:3-4). And he quoted the OT extensively (Rom 15:3,9-12,21, 1Co 15:25,32,45,54-55, etc.).

To my knowledge he quoted no non-OT text, nor suggested that he was referencing anything other than the OT. However, it is an intriguing idea, if you think you can build a case for it.

Sheshbazzar · 09-18-2008, 09:31 PM

While it is impossible to ascertain how much respect he held for the rest of their writings, Paul does quote directly from earlier non-OT sources in Acts 17:28

Quote:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

and in Titus 1:12

Quote:

One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Which have been dated as being composed 300-600 b.c., and which by whatever means he came by the sayings, would indicate that he had some familiarity, and a measure of respect for the validity of these non-OT writings.
Question is did he regard them as scripture on equal footing with the TaNaKa when he quoted them?

andrewcriddle · 09-19-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

While it is impossible to ascertain how much respect he held for the rest of their writings, Paul does quote directly from earlier non-OT sources in Acts 17:28

Quote:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

and in Titus 1:12

Quote:

One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

One problem is that the first example is Luke's version of Paul, and the second is probably by an early disciple of Paul, rather than by Paul hiself.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 09-19-2008, 03:33 PM

A related question might be when and where did some writings become holy?

Sheshbazzar · 09-19-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

While it is impossible to ascertain how much respect he held for the rest of their writings, Paul does quote directly from earlier non-OT sources in Acts 17:28

and in Titus 1:12

One problem is that the first example is Luke's version of Paul, and the second is probably by an early disciple of Paul, rather than by Paul hiself.

Andrew Criddle

Yes, there is that problem that there is virtually nothing that "Paul" allegedly "wrote" or "said" that can be proven, or trusted to have actually originated with the original "Paul" (if indeed, there ever was an actual and living prototype "Paul", one who was not just a convenient ecclesiastical literary invention and tool.)
Interesting how "Paul" was able to revise and update "his" compositions over hundreds of years to address evolving popular theological arguments.

aa5874 · 09-19-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

While it is impossible to ascertain how much respect he held for the rest of their writings, Paul does quote directly from earlier non-OT sources in Acts 17:28

and in Titus 1:12

One problem is that the first example is Luke's version of Paul, and the second is probably by an early disciple of Paul, rather than by Paul hiself.

Andrew Criddle

Paul probably had no disciples or a real life.

Roger Pearse · 09-20-2008, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

...Tarsus, which had a very large library...

Can you document this from ancient sources?

Clivedurdle · 09-20-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

TarsusTurkey

Main

city, south-central Turkey, on the Tarsus River, about 12 miles (20 km) from the Mediterranean coast. It is an ancient city, on the alluvial plain of ancient Cilicia, the birthplace of St. Paul (Acts of the Apostles 22:3). Excavations by Hetty Goldman before and immediately after World War II at Gözlükule, on the southwestern periphery of the modern town, show that, with some interruptions, settlements had existed there from Neolithic to Islamic times. Tarsus’ prosperity between the 5th century bc and the Arab invasions in the 7th century ad was based primarily on its fertile soil, its commanding position at the southern end of the Cilician Gates (the only major pass in the Taurus Range), and the excellent harbour of Rhegma, which enabled Tarsus to establish strong connections with the Levant.
The first historical record of Tarsus is its rebuilding by the Assyrian king Sennacherib (705–681 bc). Thereafter, Achaemenid and Seleucid rule alternated with periods of autonomy.

In 67 bc Tarsus was absorbed into the new Roman province of Cilicia. A university was established that became known for its flourishing school of Greek philosophy. The famous first meeting between Mark Antony and Cleopatra took place there in 41 bc.

During the Roman and early Byzantine periods, Tarsus was one of the leading cities of the Eastern Empire, with an economy based on agriculture and an important linen industry. Modern Tarsus continues to be a prosperous agricultural and cotton-milling centre. Pop. (2000) 216,382.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/583734/Tarsus

09-18-2008, 02:10 PM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Paul and the Holy Scriptures Assuming Paul was from Tarsus, which had a very large library, why is it thought his references to scriptures refer to the Hebrew Bible? Would he have considered other works as scriptures as well?

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09-18-2008, 05:54 PM	#2
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	I was just about to post this question :/

09-19-2008, 03:33 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	A related question might be when and where did some writings become holy?

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